From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Tue Jul 30 2002 - 00:21:49 MDT
Phil, what planet are you from? Here on Earth, punishment
works well on birds and mammals.
> Here's the libertarian position: punishment doesn't
> work AND it's a violation of the rights of the
> recipient, no matter WHAT he or she did that we don't
> like. The proper moral goal is not to act like the
> great thug in the sky - God - and hurt people who
> offend us. It is to pursue our own lives and values
> free of fear of being robbed or murdered, right?
First, that's *not* "the" libertarian position, and
I don't think that there is such a thing. I'm not
necessarily interested in moral goals, I want to
know what make societies function, and even admit
to a sort of final utilitarianism. What we tend to
call moral usually for me boils down to what has
been shown to work (and sometimes what is evidently
built-in in me). (That latter I guess you already
agree with.)
So you want that we should be able to pursue our own
lives without fear of being robbed, eh? Well, what
do you think would happen if the L.A.P.D. were to
announce that from now on, no one stealing television
sets or other merchandise from homes will be punished
in any way when apprehended, except forced to return
the merchandise and make suitable restitution to the
owner for his or her inconvenience?
> The moral is the practical. Morality is a set of
> principles for living based on long-term consequences.
> People who live in a long-term perspective tend to be
> moral. When we make them less than human and destroy
> their future, are they going to be moral?
Probably not. We don't know enough to be able to exert
enough mind-control on criminals to make them law abiding,
any more than a Mafia don knows how to get some wayward
child of his able to accept the family traditions of
crime. We punish for four reasons: (1) removal, (2)
deterrence, (3) rehabilitation, and (4) revenge. Items
three and four are broken, and we should encourage our
societies to stick to (1) and (2). But item 2 really
does work.
> Other societies have dealt successfully with
> crime, violent and otherwise, by making the criminal
> literally PAY for his stupid or vicious or mistaken
> behavior.
Name any major society in Earth's history that eschewed
punishment (besides Iceland, which cannot be considered
a major society). Here are the first that come to mind,
just to get you started. Want to think about Greece,
Rome, Medieval Japan, China, India? Want to consider
the Incas, Mayans, Aztecs, ancient Egyptians? How
about 15th-19th century French, English, German,
Russian, Spanish, or Turkish societies? I'll be most
rewarded and grateful if you can name a single one (not
having to be in my short list there) that "rose above"
punishing those who they considered to be wrongdoers.
Lee
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