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Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
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Excellent points Christophe!

Although moving to 1e-6 units is fine for me and I see advantages of doing
this, I don't get that people on this mailing list are fine with calling
such unit "bit". It's geeky as hell, ambiguous and confusing.

slush


On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Christophe Biocca <
christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote:

> Context as a disambiguator works fine when the interlocutors
> understand the topics they're talking about.
> Not a day goes by without me seeing "neurotypical people" get horribly
> confused between RAM and Hard Drive sizes, because they share the same
> units (not that that can be helped, as the units are supposed to be
> the same, base 1000 vs 1024 notwithstanding).
>
> Bit (as a unit) is already really confusing for anyone who doesn't
> deal with it on a regular basis. I think people who don't see an issue
> are making an assumption based on their own lack of confusion. We
> understand computer science AND Bitcoin. Most people have zero
> understanding of either.
>
> Bitcoin already has a ton of issues with terrible names for things:
>
> - Mining (for transaction validation).
> - Addresses (which are meant to be one-time use, and don't even really
> exist at the network level).
> - Wallets (which don't hold your bitcoins, can be copied, and all
> backups can be stolen from equally).
>
> I end up having to make the distinctions obvious every time I explain
> Bitcoin to someone new to it. There's an acceptable tradeoff here,
> because there were arguably no better words to assign to these
> concepts (although I'd argue mining is a really awful metaphor, and is
> the one that prompts the most questions from people). Then add to the
> pile a bunch of third parties naming themselves after parts of the
> protocol (Coinbase,Blockchain.info). Not blaming them for it, but I've
> definitiely seen average people get confused between "the blockchain"
> and "blockchain.info" (not so much Coinbase, because that name doesn't
> come up in beginner explanations).
>
> It seems downright masochistic to add
> yet-another-word-that-doesn't-mean-what-you-think-it-means to the pile
> for no reason other than aesthetics. Are we actively trying to confuse
> people?
>
> On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Aaron Voisine <voisine@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant of
> > overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have no
> > problem with it and perceive a software engineer's aversion to it as
> > being pedantic and strange. Note that "bits" was a term for a unit of
> > money long before the invention of digital computers.
> >
> > Aaron
> >
> > There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole
> > government working for you -- Will Rodgers
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Gordon Mohr <gojomo@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> [resend - apologies if duplicate]
> >>
> >> Microbitcoin is a good-sized unit, workable for everyday transaction
> >> values, with room-to-grow, and a nice relationship to satoshis as
> 'cents'.
> >>
> >> But "bits" has problems as a unit name.
> >>
> >> "Bits" will be especially problematic whenever people try to graduate
> >> from informal use to understanding the system internals - that is, whe=
n
> >> the real "bits" of key sizes, hash sizes, and storage/bandwidth needs
> >> become important. The "bit" as "binary digit" was important enough tha=
t
> >> Satoshi named the system after it; that homage gets lost if the word i=
s
> >> muddied with a new retconned meaning that's quite different.
> >>
> >> Some examples of possible problems:
> >>
> >> * If "bit" equals "100 satoshis", then the natural-language unpacking =
of
> >> "bit-coin" is "100 satoshi coin", which runs against all prior usage.
> >>
> >> * If people are informed that a "256-bit private key" is what ultimate=
ly
> >> controls their balances, it could prompt confusion like, "if each key
> >> has 256-bits, will I need 40 keys to hold 10,000.00 bits?"
> >>
> >> * When people learn that there are 8 bits to a byte, they may think,
> >> "OK, my wallet holding my 80,000.00 bits will then take up 10
> kilobytes".
> >>
> >> * When people naturally extend "bit" into "kilobits" to mean "1000
> >> bits", then the new coinage "kilobits" will mean the exact same amount
> >> (100,000 satoshi) as many have already been calling "millibits".
> >>
> >> I believe it'd be best to pick a new made-up single-syllable word as a
> >> synonym for "microbitcoin", and I've laid out the case for "zib" as th=
at
> >> word at <http://zibcoin.org>.
> >>
> >> 'Zib' also lends itself to an expressive unicode symbol, '=C6=B5'
> >> (Z-with-stroke), that remains distinctive even if it loses its stroke =
or
> >> gets case-reversed. (Comparatively, all 'b'-derived symbols for
> >> data-bits, bitcoins, or '100 satoshi bits' risk collision in contexts
> >> where subtleties of casing/stroking are lost.)
> >>
> >> (There's summary of more problems with "bit" in the zibcoin.org FAQ
>  at:
> >> <http://zibcoin.org/faq#why-not-bits-to-mean-microbitcoins>.)
> >>
> >> - Gordon
> >>
> >> On 5/1/14, 3:35 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote:
> >>> I'm also a big fan of standardizing on microBTC as the standard unit.
> >>> I didn't like the name "bits" at first, but the more I think about it=
,
> >>> the more I like it. The main thing going for it is the fact that it's
> >>> part of the name bitcoin. If Bitcoin is the protocol and network, bit=
s
> >>> are an obvious choice for the currency unit.
> >>>
> >>> I would like to propose using Unicode character U+0180, lowercase b
> >>> with stroke, as the symbol to represent the microBTC denomination,
> >>> whether we call bits or something else:
> >>>   http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0180/index.htm
> >>>
> >>> Another candidate is Unicode character U+2422, the blank symbol, but =
I
> >>> prefer stroke b.
> >>> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2422/index.htm
> >>>
> >>> Aaron
> >>>
> >>> There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole
> >>> government working for you -- Will Rodgers
> >>>
> >>>> On Apr 21, 2014 5:41 AM, "Pieter Wuille" <pieter.wuille@gm...> wrote=
:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, "Un Ix" <slashdevnull@...> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in
> common
> >>>>> usage I.e. bit.
> >>>>
> >>>> What units will be called colloquially is not something developers
> will
> >>>> determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, and is not
> >>>> relevant to this discussion in my opinion.
> >>>>
> >>>> It may well be that people in some geographic or language area will
> end up
> >>>> (or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC "bits". That's fine, but using
> that as
> >>>> "official" name in software would be very strange and potentially
> confusing
> >>>> in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem to me like
> calling
> >>>> dollars "bucks" in bank software. Nobody seems to have a problem wit=
h
> >>>> having colloquial names, but "US dollar" or "euro" are far less
> ambiguous
> >>>> than "bit". I think we need a more distinctive name.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Pieter
> >>>
> >>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> >>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FRE=
E
> >>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.  Get
> >>> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform
> available.
> >>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> >> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
> >> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.  Get
> >> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform
> available.
> >> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE
> > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.  Get
> > unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform
> available.
> > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
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> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos.  Get
> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform availabl=
e.
> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Excellent points Christophe!<div><br></div><div>Although m=
oving to 1e-6 units is fine for me and I see advantages of doing this, I do=
n&#39;t get that people on this mailing list are fine with calling such uni=
t &quot;bit&quot;. It&#39;s geeky as hell, ambiguous and confusing.=C2=A0</=
div>

<div><br></div><div>slush</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Christophe Biocca <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christophe.biocca@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">christophe.biocca@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Context as a disambiguator works fine when t=
he interlocutors<br>
understand the topics they&#39;re talking about.<br>
Not a day goes by without me seeing &quot;neurotypical people&quot; get hor=
ribly<br>
confused between RAM and Hard Drive sizes, because they share the same<br>
units (not that that can be helped, as the units are supposed to be<br>
the same, base 1000 vs 1024 notwithstanding).<br>
<br>
Bit (as a unit) is already really confusing for anyone who doesn&#39;t<br>
deal with it on a regular basis. I think people who don&#39;t see an issue<=
br>
are making an assumption based on their own lack of confusion. We<br>
understand computer science AND Bitcoin. Most people have zero<br>
understanding of either.<br>
<br>
Bitcoin already has a ton of issues with terrible names for things:<br>
<br>
- Mining (for transaction validation).<br>
- Addresses (which are meant to be one-time use, and don&#39;t even really<=
br>
exist at the network level).<br>
- Wallets (which don&#39;t hold your bitcoins, can be copied, and all<br>
backups can be stolen from equally).<br>
<br>
I end up having to make the distinctions obvious every time I explain<br>
Bitcoin to someone new to it. There&#39;s an acceptable tradeoff here,<br>
because there were arguably no better words to assign to these<br>
concepts (although I&#39;d argue mining is a really awful metaphor, and is<=
br>
the one that prompts the most questions from people). Then add to the<br>
pile a bunch of third parties naming themselves after parts of the<br>
protocol (Coinbase,Blockchain.info). Not blaming them for it, but I&#39;ve<=
br>
definitiely seen average people get confused between &quot;the blockchain&q=
uot;<br>
and &quot;<a href=3D"http://blockchain.info" target=3D"_blank">blockchain.i=
nfo</a>&quot; (not so much Coinbase, because that name doesn&#39;t<br>
come up in beginner explanations).<br>
<br>
It seems downright masochistic to add<br>
yet-another-word-that-doesn&#39;t-mean-what-you-think-it-means to the pile<=
br>
for no reason other than aesthetics. Are we actively trying to confuse<br>
people?<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Aaron Voisine &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:voisine=
@gmail.com">voisine@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant of<=
br>
&gt; overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have no<br=
>
&gt; problem with it and perceive a software engineer&#39;s aversion to it =
as<br>
&gt; being pedantic and strange. Note that &quot;bits&quot; was a term for =
a unit of<br>
&gt; money long before the invention of digital computers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Aaron<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There&#39;s no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole<br>
&gt; government working for you -- Will Rodgers<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Gordon Mohr &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gojo=
mo@gmail.com">gojomo@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; [resend - apologies if duplicate]<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Microbitcoin is a good-sized unit, workable for everyday transacti=
on<br>
&gt;&gt; values, with room-to-grow, and a nice relationship to satoshis as =
&#39;cents&#39;.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; But &quot;bits&quot; has problems as a unit name.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;Bits&quot; will be especially problematic whenever people tr=
y to graduate<br>
&gt;&gt; from informal use to understanding the system internals - that is,=
 when<br>
&gt;&gt; the real &quot;bits&quot; of key sizes, hash sizes, and storage/ba=
ndwidth needs<br>
&gt;&gt; become important. The &quot;bit&quot; as &quot;binary digit&quot; =
was important enough that<br>
&gt;&gt; Satoshi named the system after it; that homage gets lost if the wo=
rd is<br>
&gt;&gt; muddied with a new retconned meaning that&#39;s quite different.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Some examples of possible problems:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; * If &quot;bit&quot; equals &quot;100 satoshis&quot;, then the nat=
ural-language unpacking of<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;bit-coin&quot; is &quot;100 satoshi coin&quot;, which runs a=
gainst all prior usage.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; * If people are informed that a &quot;256-bit private key&quot; is=
 what ultimately<br>
&gt;&gt; controls their balances, it could prompt confusion like, &quot;if =
each key<br>
&gt;&gt; has 256-bits, will I need 40 keys to hold 10,000.00 bits?&quot;<br=
>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; * When people learn that there are 8 bits to a byte, they may thin=
k,<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;OK, my wallet holding my 80,000.00 bits will then take up 10=
 kilobytes&quot;.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; * When people naturally extend &quot;bit&quot; into &quot;kilobits=
&quot; to mean &quot;1000<br>
&gt;&gt; bits&quot;, then the new coinage &quot;kilobits&quot; will mean th=
e exact same amount<br>
&gt;&gt; (100,000 satoshi) as many have already been calling &quot;millibit=
s&quot;.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I believe it&#39;d be best to pick a new made-up single-syllable w=
ord as a<br>
&gt;&gt; synonym for &quot;microbitcoin&quot;, and I&#39;ve laid out the ca=
se for &quot;zib&quot; as that<br>
&gt;&gt; word at &lt;<a href=3D"http://zibcoin.org" target=3D"_blank">http:=
//zibcoin.org</a>&gt;.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &#39;Zib&#39; also lends itself to an expressive unicode symbol, &=
#39;=C6=B5&#39;<br>
&gt;&gt; (Z-with-stroke), that remains distinctive even if it loses its str=
oke or<br>
&gt;&gt; gets case-reversed. (Comparatively, all &#39;b&#39;-derived symbol=
s for<br>
&gt;&gt; data-bits, bitcoins, or &#39;100 satoshi bits&#39; risk collision =
in contexts<br>
&gt;&gt; where subtleties of casing/stroking are lost.)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; (There&#39;s summary of more problems with &quot;bit&quot; in the =
<a href=3D"http://zibcoin.org" target=3D"_blank">zibcoin.org</a> FAQ =C2=A0=
at:<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"http://zibcoin.org/faq#why-not-bits-to-mean-microbi=
tcoins" target=3D"_blank">http://zibcoin.org/faq#why-not-bits-to-mean-micro=
bitcoins</a>&gt;.)<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; - Gordon<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 5/1/14, 3:35 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;m also a big fan of standardizing on microBTC as the sta=
ndard unit.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I didn&#39;t like the name &quot;bits&quot; at first, but the =
more I think about it,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the more I like it. The main thing going for it is the fact th=
at it&#39;s<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; part of the name bitcoin. If Bitcoin is the protocol and netwo=
rk, bits<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; are an obvious choice for the currency unit.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I would like to propose using Unicode character U+0180, lowerc=
ase b<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; with stroke, as the symbol to represent the microBTC denominat=
ion,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; whether we call bits or something else:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char=
/0180/index.htm" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/=
char/0180/index.htm</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Another candidate is Unicode character U+2422, the blank symbo=
l, but I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; prefer stroke b.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2422/i=
ndex.htm" target=3D"_blank">http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/24=
22/index.htm</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Aaron<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; There&#39;s no trick to being a humorist when you have the who=
le<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; government working for you -- Will Rodgers<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 21, 2014 5:41 AM, &quot;Pieter Wuille&quot; &lt;pie=
ter.wuille@gm...&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, &quot;Un Ix&quot; &lt;slashde=
vnull@...&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Something tells me this would be reduced to a single s=
yllable in common<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; usage I.e. bit.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What units will be called colloquially is not something de=
velopers will<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, a=
nd is not<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; relevant to this discussion in my opinion.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; It may well be that people in some geographic or language =
area will end up<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC &quot;bits&quot;. That&=
#39;s fine, but using that as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;official&quot; name in software would be very strang=
e and potentially confusing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem to =
me like calling<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; dollars &quot;bucks&quot; in bank software. Nobody seems t=
o have a problem with<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; having colloquial names, but &quot;US dollar&quot; or &quo=
t;euro&quot; are far less ambiguous<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; than &quot;bit&quot;. I think we need a more distinctive n=
ame.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pieter<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; --------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------<br>
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Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. =C2=A0Get<=
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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