Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WgcP3-00078W-IH for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 03 May 2014 16:03:05 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from mail-ve0-f170.google.com ([209.85.128.170]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1WgcP1-0001H3-Cw for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 03 May 2014 16:03:05 +0000 Received: by mail-ve0-f170.google.com with SMTP id db11so2097236veb.15 for ; Sat, 03 May 2014 09:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=29DXEyncH2OKlcymvZ8R12lxPxLdj5ebA0epX2hNB8k=; b=PeKOYY8MBXuqLDUjnlXXwXvDQwCgvYRFGF9u1jX+xmEfj8vZYbr6OqbFOcLRZrq80H a27c6DgwdHSQG7m6L7e9zWwRSMsYH5MTr72UdTgRMMb/VJTC8GJ34c/8gxfKyrPfq+MR YpqnrcYEcLeIHJzyG/e9Qqf4brcryA8rumIy0ljEt4D8r5w2467nPSPnNqJhxoDdy8sj XMnchLdnNIUlGmXZGrMxo3ViYrlIgR/jvl76Fu28rPbYe///6Z1I90BoYex77/CHp5hW eHBY4DqGdHP3jYfxblVD2bcxR7erLOm7frr4gYJtwc8wV8Vgo53Ar8Ms9luABdfoIkMj 3R1A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk4WcoUwy0BvqreSCoc+cbl3XB+t5qob4ittD0cmK2xuAXCj7TyAwKKQi9pg8pNE0B7D7eL X-Received: by 10.221.50.70 with SMTP id vd6mr3566vcb.51.1399132977777; Sat, 03 May 2014 09:02:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: marek@palatinus.cz Received: by 10.58.234.68 with HTTP; Sat, 3 May 2014 09:02:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <53644F13.1080203@gmail.com> From: slush Date: Sat, 3 May 2014 18:02:27 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: P3qtHUEk8OtdhGtCudQit-dcL6I Message-ID: To: Christophe Biocca Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11339a762262cd04f8810873 X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (slush[at]centrum.cz) 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1WgcP1-0001H3-Cw Cc: Bitcoin Development Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 May 2014 16:03:05 -0000 --001a11339a762262cd04f8810873 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent points Christophe! Although moving to 1e-6 units is fine for me and I see advantages of doing this, I don't get that people on this mailing list are fine with calling such unit "bit". It's geeky as hell, ambiguous and confusing. slush On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Christophe Biocca < christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote: > Context as a disambiguator works fine when the interlocutors > understand the topics they're talking about. > Not a day goes by without me seeing "neurotypical people" get horribly > confused between RAM and Hard Drive sizes, because they share the same > units (not that that can be helped, as the units are supposed to be > the same, base 1000 vs 1024 notwithstanding). > > Bit (as a unit) is already really confusing for anyone who doesn't > deal with it on a regular basis. I think people who don't see an issue > are making an assumption based on their own lack of confusion. We > understand computer science AND Bitcoin. Most people have zero > understanding of either. > > Bitcoin already has a ton of issues with terrible names for things: > > - Mining (for transaction validation). > - Addresses (which are meant to be one-time use, and don't even really > exist at the network level). > - Wallets (which don't hold your bitcoins, can be copied, and all > backups can be stolen from equally). > > I end up having to make the distinctions obvious every time I explain > Bitcoin to someone new to it. There's an acceptable tradeoff here, > because there were arguably no better words to assign to these > concepts (although I'd argue mining is a really awful metaphor, and is > the one that prompts the most questions from people). Then add to the > pile a bunch of third parties naming themselves after parts of the > protocol (Coinbase,Blockchain.info). Not blaming them for it, but I've > definitiely seen average people get confused between "the blockchain" > and "blockchain.info" (not so much Coinbase, because that name doesn't > come up in beginner explanations). > > It seems downright masochistic to add > yet-another-word-that-doesn't-mean-what-you-think-it-means to the pile > for no reason other than aesthetics. Are we actively trying to confuse > people? > > On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Aaron Voisine wrote: > > I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant of > > overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have no > > problem with it and perceive a software engineer's aversion to it as > > being pedantic and strange. Note that "bits" was a term for a unit of > > money long before the invention of digital computers. > > > > Aaron > > > > There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole > > government working for you -- Will Rodgers > > > > > > On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Gordon Mohr wrote: > >> [resend - apologies if duplicate] > >> > >> Microbitcoin is a good-sized unit, workable for everyday transaction > >> values, with room-to-grow, and a nice relationship to satoshis as > 'cents'. > >> > >> But "bits" has problems as a unit name. > >> > >> "Bits" will be especially problematic whenever people try to graduate > >> from informal use to understanding the system internals - that is, whe= n > >> the real "bits" of key sizes, hash sizes, and storage/bandwidth needs > >> become important. The "bit" as "binary digit" was important enough tha= t > >> Satoshi named the system after it; that homage gets lost if the word i= s > >> muddied with a new retconned meaning that's quite different. > >> > >> Some examples of possible problems: > >> > >> * If "bit" equals "100 satoshis", then the natural-language unpacking = of > >> "bit-coin" is "100 satoshi coin", which runs against all prior usage. > >> > >> * If people are informed that a "256-bit private key" is what ultimate= ly > >> controls their balances, it could prompt confusion like, "if each key > >> has 256-bits, will I need 40 keys to hold 10,000.00 bits?" > >> > >> * When people learn that there are 8 bits to a byte, they may think, > >> "OK, my wallet holding my 80,000.00 bits will then take up 10 > kilobytes". > >> > >> * When people naturally extend "bit" into "kilobits" to mean "1000 > >> bits", then the new coinage "kilobits" will mean the exact same amount > >> (100,000 satoshi) as many have already been calling "millibits". > >> > >> I believe it'd be best to pick a new made-up single-syllable word as a > >> synonym for "microbitcoin", and I've laid out the case for "zib" as th= at > >> word at . > >> > >> 'Zib' also lends itself to an expressive unicode symbol, '=C6=B5' > >> (Z-with-stroke), that remains distinctive even if it loses its stroke = or > >> gets case-reversed. (Comparatively, all 'b'-derived symbols for > >> data-bits, bitcoins, or '100 satoshi bits' risk collision in contexts > >> where subtleties of casing/stroking are lost.) > >> > >> (There's summary of more problems with "bit" in the zibcoin.org FAQ > at: > >> .) > >> > >> - Gordon > >> > >> On 5/1/14, 3:35 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote: > >>> I'm also a big fan of standardizing on microBTC as the standard unit. > >>> I didn't like the name "bits" at first, but the more I think about it= , > >>> the more I like it. The main thing going for it is the fact that it's > >>> part of the name bitcoin. If Bitcoin is the protocol and network, bit= s > >>> are an obvious choice for the currency unit. > >>> > >>> I would like to propose using Unicode character U+0180, lowercase b > >>> with stroke, as the symbol to represent the microBTC denomination, > >>> whether we call bits or something else: > >>> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0180/index.htm > >>> > >>> Another candidate is Unicode character U+2422, the blank symbol, but = I > >>> prefer stroke b. > >>> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2422/index.htm > >>> > >>> Aaron > >>> > >>> There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole > >>> government working for you -- Will Rodgers > >>> > >>>> On Apr 21, 2014 5:41 AM, "Pieter Wuille" wrote= : > >>>> > >>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, "Un Ix" wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Something tells me this would be reduced to a single syllable in > common > >>>>> usage I.e. bit. > >>>> > >>>> What units will be called colloquially is not something developers > will > >>>> determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, and is not > >>>> relevant to this discussion in my opinion. > >>>> > >>>> It may well be that people in some geographic or language area will > end up > >>>> (or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC "bits". That's fine, but using > that as > >>>> "official" name in software would be very strange and potentially > confusing > >>>> in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem to me like > calling > >>>> dollars "bucks" in bank software. Nobody seems to have a problem wit= h > >>>> having colloquial names, but "US dollar" or "euro" are far less > ambiguous > >>>> than "bit". I think we need a more distinctive name. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Pieter > >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > >>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FRE= E > >>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get > >>> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform > available. > >>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >>> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > >> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > >> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get > >> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform > available. > >> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get > > unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform > available. > > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > > _______________________________________________ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE > Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. Get > unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform availabl= e. > Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free." > http://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > --001a11339a762262cd04f8810873 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Excellent points Christophe!

Although m= oving to 1e-6 units is fine for me and I see advantages of doing this, I do= n't get that people on this mailing list are fine with calling such uni= t "bit". It's geeky as hell, ambiguous and confusing.=C2=A0

slush


On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 5:48 PM, Christophe Biocca <= span dir=3D"ltr"><christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote:
Context as a disambiguator works fine when t= he interlocutors
understand the topics they're talking about.
Not a day goes by without me seeing "neurotypical people" get hor= ribly
confused between RAM and Hard Drive sizes, because they share the same
units (not that that can be helped, as the units are supposed to be
the same, base 1000 vs 1024 notwithstanding).

Bit (as a unit) is already really confusing for anyone who doesn't
deal with it on a regular basis. I think people who don't see an issue<= br> are making an assumption based on their own lack of confusion. We
understand computer science AND Bitcoin. Most people have zero
understanding of either.

Bitcoin already has a ton of issues with terrible names for things:

- Mining (for transaction validation).
- Addresses (which are meant to be one-time use, and don't even really<= br> exist at the network level).
- Wallets (which don't hold your bitcoins, can be copied, and all
backups can be stolen from equally).

I end up having to make the distinctions obvious every time I explain
Bitcoin to someone new to it. There's an acceptable tradeoff here,
because there were arguably no better words to assign to these
concepts (although I'd argue mining is a really awful metaphor, and is<= br> the one that prompts the most questions from people). Then add to the
pile a bunch of third parties naming themselves after parts of the
protocol (Coinbase,Blockchain.info). Not blaming them for it, but I've<= br> definitiely seen average people get confused between "the blockchain&q= uot;
and "blockchain.i= nfo" (not so much Coinbase, because that name doesn't
come up in beginner explanations).

It seems downright masochistic to add
yet-another-word-that-doesn't-mean-what-you-think-it-means to the pile<= br> for no reason other than aesthetics. Are we actively trying to confuse
people?

On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Aaron Voisine <voisine@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have to agree with Mike. Human language is surprisingly tolerant of<= br> > overloading and inference from context. Neurotypical people have no > problem with it and perceive a software engineer's aversion to it = as
> being pedantic and strange. Note that "bits" was a term for = a unit of
> money long before the invention of digital computers.
>
> Aaron
>
> There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole
> government working for you -- Will Rodgers
>
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Gordon Mohr <gojomo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> [resend - apologies if duplicate]
>>
>> Microbitcoin is a good-sized unit, workable for everyday transacti= on
>> values, with room-to-grow, and a nice relationship to satoshis as = 'cents'.
>>
>> But "bits" has problems as a unit name.
>>
>> "Bits" will be especially problematic whenever people tr= y to graduate
>> from informal use to understanding the system internals - that is,= when
>> the real "bits" of key sizes, hash sizes, and storage/ba= ndwidth needs
>> become important. The "bit" as "binary digit" = was important enough that
>> Satoshi named the system after it; that homage gets lost if the wo= rd is
>> muddied with a new retconned meaning that's quite different. >>
>> Some examples of possible problems:
>>
>> * If "bit" equals "100 satoshis", then the nat= ural-language unpacking of
>> "bit-coin" is "100 satoshi coin", which runs a= gainst all prior usage.
>>
>> * If people are informed that a "256-bit private key" is= what ultimately
>> controls their balances, it could prompt confusion like, "if = each key
>> has 256-bits, will I need 40 keys to hold 10,000.00 bits?" >>
>> * When people learn that there are 8 bits to a byte, they may thin= k,
>> "OK, my wallet holding my 80,000.00 bits will then take up 10= kilobytes".
>>
>> * When people naturally extend "bit" into "kilobits= " to mean "1000
>> bits", then the new coinage "kilobits" will mean th= e exact same amount
>> (100,000 satoshi) as many have already been calling "millibit= s".
>>
>> I believe it'd be best to pick a new made-up single-syllable w= ord as a
>> synonym for "microbitcoin", and I've laid out the ca= se for "zib" as that
>> word at <http:= //zibcoin.org>.
>>
>> 'Zib' also lends itself to an expressive unicode symbol, &= #39;=C6=B5'
>> (Z-with-stroke), that remains distinctive even if it loses its str= oke or
>> gets case-reversed. (Comparatively, all 'b'-derived symbol= s for
>> data-bits, bitcoins, or '100 satoshi bits' risk collision = in contexts
>> where subtleties of casing/stroking are lost.)
>>
>> (There's summary of more problems with "bit" in the = zibcoin.org FAQ =C2=A0= at:
>> <http://zibcoin.org/faq#why-not-bits-to-mean-micro= bitcoins>.)
>>
>> - Gordon
>>
>> On 5/1/14, 3:35 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote:
>>> I'm also a big fan of standardizing on microBTC as the sta= ndard unit.
>>> I didn't like the name "bits" at first, but the = more I think about it,
>>> the more I like it. The main thing going for it is the fact th= at it's
>>> part of the name bitcoin. If Bitcoin is the protocol and netwo= rk, bits
>>> are an obvious choice for the currency unit.
>>>
>>> I would like to propose using Unicode character U+0180, lowerc= ase b
>>> with stroke, as the symbol to represent the microBTC denominat= ion,
>>> whether we call bits or something else:
>>> =C2=A0 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/= char/0180/index.htm
>>>
>>> Another candidate is Unicode character U+2422, the blank symbo= l, but I
>>> prefer stroke b.
>>> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/24= 22/index.htm
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>> There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the who= le
>>> government working for you -- Will Rodgers
>>>
>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 5:41 AM, "Pieter Wuille" <pie= ter.wuille@gm...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 21, 2014 3:37 AM, "Un Ix" <slashde= vnull@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Something tells me this would be reduced to a single s= yllable in common
>>>>> usage I.e. bit.
>>>>
>>>> What units will be called colloquially is not something de= velopers will
>>>> determine. It will vary, depend on language and culture, a= nd is not
>>>> relevant to this discussion in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>> It may well be that people in some geographic or language = area will end up
>>>> (or for a while) calling 1e-06 BTC "bits". That&= #39;s fine, but using that as
>>>> "official" name in software would be very strang= e and potentially confusing
>>>> in my opinion. As mentioned by others, that would seem to = me like calling
>>>> dollars "bucks" in bank software. Nobody seems t= o have a problem with
>>>> having colloquial names, but "US dollar" or &quo= t;euro" are far less ambiguous
>>>> than "bit". I think we need a more distinctive n= ame.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Pieter
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------
>>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testi= ng - For FREE
>>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combo= s. =C2=A0Get
>>> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platfo= rm available.
>>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free.&q= uot;
>>> ht= tp://p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> B= itcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listin= fo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------
>> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing -= For FREE
>> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. = =C2=A0Get
>> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform a= vailable.
>> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."=
>> http:/= /p.sf.net/sfu/SauceLabs
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitco= in-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/b= itcoin-development
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------
> "Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For= FREE
> Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. =C2= =A0Get
> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform avail= able.
> Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
> http://p.s= f.net/sfu/SauceLabs
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-d= evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco= in-development

---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---
"Accelerate Dev Cycles with Automated Cross-Browser Testing - For FREE=
Instantly run your Selenium tests across 300+ browser/OS combos. =C2=A0Get<= br> unparalleled scalability from the best Selenium testing platform available.=
Simple to use. Nothing to install. Get started now for free."
http://p.sf.net= /sfu/SauceLabs
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment

--001a11339a762262cd04f8810873--