From: gts (gts@optexinc.com)
Date: Fri Sep 06 2002 - 02:10:41 MDT
Lee, continuing my reply to you that I started last night as I was
falling asleep...
I am amused by the way that I commented last night on my own feelings of
inadequacy with respect to my command (or lack thereof) of the English
language, and then proceeded to write the following sentence in defense
of the idea that unconscious internal processes like the heart-beat have
motivation: "More accurately, I would not be so quick to dismiss the
idea that the human nervous system has no motivation to send electrical
impulses to the heart to trigger its beat."
That is of course the very idea that I hope you *will* dismiss quickly.
I tripped on the double negative. :-)
In any case...
> To me, yes, it's very questionable to say that a beating heart
> is human behavior, but not quite as outrageous as to say
> that one's heart beats for a motive.
I will continue to classify internal biological processes as "motivated"
only if you continue to classify them as "human behavior."
>> My axiom again is "Every human behavior has a motivation."
>> It should be clear that "human behavior," in the common
>> parlance, refers only to objectively measurable behavior
>> such as walking a dog or lobbing a hand-grenade into an
>> enemy trench.
> Objectively measurable? I think that you can see that you haven't
> captured your intent very clearly. Heart beats are certainly
> objective.
By "objectively measurable" I mean something similar to "easily observed
by others, in principle." Altruistic acts for example are objectively
measurable in this way, even when they go unobserved.
> I say, the only human motivations are the classic ones
> such as greed, lust, love, hate, conscious intent to achieve some
> goal, and so on. Often they are deliberate. Sometimes,
> (but rarely), unconcious, and then described precisely as
> "unconscious motivations" or "unconscious motives".
In general I agree, though I do not agree that unconscious motivations
are "rare." The world is filled with mental health professionals who
make good livings helping people become conscious of their unconscious
motivations. That you are not conscious of your unconscious motivations
and thus consider them rare should not be surprising; they are, after
all, unconscious motivations. :)
> An stone age man is not motivated to
> provide blood to his organs! We should not speak of his body
> being motivated, or having a motive to do something, else we
> descend to the truly ridiculous and announce that every molecular
> motion has a motivation.
Again, I will follow that road only if you lead me down it. If necessary
I will continue to make a case that all internal processes are
"unconsciously motivated," because the human body is controlled by
unconscious processes connected intimately to the brain, but like you
I'd rather avoid that semantic nightmare.
> > > I think you mean something closer to "explanation" or
> > > "reason". Can you think of two equivalent ways of saying
> > > what you want to say (even if they are each several
> > > sentences) without using the m-word?
> >
> > No.
> >
> > "Reason" implies the participation of the cerebral cortex.
>
> Not in the way I meant it, e.g., what was the reason that
> X happened, i.e. what is the explanation?
Okay, sorry, you were using the word "reason" differently than I
interpreted.
I would say that yes, every behavior has a reason or explanation. But
lest you get excited that I may be in agreement with you, I say further
that the reason or explanation for every behavior is to be found in its
motivation.
> Please address the following from my last
> post, and say why you agree or disagree, or propose an
> alternative theory:
>
> I see a continuum here; at the "top" we commit actions
> that are extremely deliberate, at the bottom, the entities
> that we are could be said (in a sense only) to channel
> blood through their veins. Perhaps we disagree on
> where "motivation" fits on the continuum.
If we must go down that road then I will again argue that there is a
motivation is to be found in every human behavior, including internal
behaviors such as the human heart-beat. Can you deny that it is in your
best interest that your heart should beat, and that your heart beats
because your brain/central nervous system instructs it to do so for your
best interest?
I think what is needed here is a larger definition of "you". You are far
more than your conscious thoughts and motivations. You are a physical
person with an unconscious motivation to stay physically alive and well.
Your heart does not beat itself, separately from you. YOU beat your
heart.
We've all heard stories of ill people whose vital organs stopped
functioning when, because of their infirmity, they finally "gave up
hope" and "lost the motivation to live." It's a real phenomenon. The
will or motivation to live is closely related to the biological act of
living.
-gts
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