From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Sun Sep 15 2002 - 20:22:23 MDT
> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of gts
> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 1:11 AM
>
>
> In any case...
>
> > To me, yes, it's very questionable to say that a beating heart
> > is human behavior, but not quite as outrageous as to say
> > that one's heart beats for a motive.
>
> I will continue to classify internal biological processes as "motivated"
> only if you continue to classify them as "human behavior."
I'm confused. My preference would be to avoid calling
human heart beats human *behavior* and to also avoid
calling internal biological processes *motivated*.
> By "objectively measurable" I mean something similar to "easily observed
> by others, in principle." Altruistic acts for example are objectively
> measurable in this way, even when they go unobserved.
>
> > I say, the only human motivations are the classic ones
> > such as greed, lust, love, hate, conscious intent to achieve some
> > goal, and so on. Often they are deliberate. Sometimes,
> > (but rarely), unconscious, and then described precisely as
> > "unconscious motivations" or "unconscious motives".
>
> In general I agree, though I do not agree that unconscious motivations
> are "rare."
I agree, and withdraw the adjective :-)
You do agree then that "the only human motivations are
the [ones like greed, love, etc.]? Good. Then we are
closer to complete agreement. As a concession signifying
my good faith, I will throw in "the human body is motivated
to beat a human's heart" iff it can be said that mechanical
devices without intelligence can have motives.
> > I see a continuum here; at the "top" we commit actions
> > that are extremely deliberate, at the bottom, the entities
> > that we are could be said (in a sense only) to channel
> > blood through their veins. Perhaps we disagree on
> > where "motivation" fits on the continuum.
>
> If we must go down that road then I will again argue that there is a
> motivation is to be found in every human behavior, including internal
> behaviors such as the human heart-beat. Can you deny that it is in your
> best interest that your heart should beat, and that your heart beats
> because your brain/central nervous system instructs it to do so for your
> best interest?
No, I must concede that.
> I think what is needed here is a larger definition of "you".
This is the rub, all right. I believe that I oppose an
enlarged definition. (That convoluted sentence is clearly
appropriate in this discussion!) For example, I intend to
survive cryonic suspension, even if it means awaking as
only a program in a grain of sand somewhere.
> You are far more than your conscious thoughts and motivations.
> You are a physical person with an unconscious motivation to
> stay physically alive and well. Your heart does not beat
> itself, separately from you. YOU beat your heart.
This is an excellent point, due to your following
> We've all heard stories of ill people whose vital organs stopped
> functioning when, because of their infirmity, they finally "gave up
> hope" and "lost the motivation to live." It's a real phenomenon.
It's an absolutely *astounding* phenomenon. Evidently both Adams
and Jefferson strove mightily to make it to July 4th, back in 1826.
> The will or motivation to live is closely related to the
> biological act of living.
It's still difficult to believe that my organs would respond
to enthusiastic cheering from my conscious brain, but evidently
it's so. It's a wonder that people stay alive when depressed
beyond all bound. So the effect must be slight. (Adams and
Jefferson evidently wouldn't have been able to will themselves
another five years of life, and I'm sure that a lot of people
die *before* a highly anticipated anniversary.) In many cases
the explanation is surely prosaic; the excitement of some
celebration breaks some little thing, and finally the whole
system collapses.
In any case, I would say that though I would be highly motivated
to beat my heart if I could, I cannot consciously do so and so
therefore we should say that I am not so motivated.
Lee
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