From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Wed Sep 04 2002 - 21:03:47 MDT
gts writes
> You're a funny guy and I appreciate your use of language to that end. :)
> I do not however appreciate it when it distorts my actual words.
Sorry. Just getting a laugh there in the introductory
paragraph of my post as I started a new thread.
> This question of whether the concept of motivation is to be extended to
> every molecular motion constituting a human being is indeed an important
> one. You were the one who introduced it when you mentioned the human
> heart-beat.
Or wait. What are you saying here? Doesn't sound like you're
joking the way I was. Anyway, to be clear, I don't think it
correct to say that human heart-beats have a *motivation*,
and downright silly (not important) to wonder if every molecular
motion does.
> It is interesting that you have accused me of misusing the English
> language, when it was you who attempted to include the beating of the
> heart under the category of "human behavior".
As I say, if we draw the lines inappropriately of what a human
is, (or a person is), then someone may indeed make mistakes
along this line. To me, yes, it's very questionable to say
that a beating heart is human behavior, but not quite as
outrageous as to say that one's heart beats for a motive.
> My axiom again is "Every human behavior has a motivation." It should be
> clear that "human behavior," in the common parlance, refers only to
> objectively measurable behavior such as walking a dog or lobbing a
> hand-grenade into an enemy trench. It does not refer to internal
> biological processes. I entertain the notion only for the purpose of
> discussion.
Objectively measurable? I think that you can see that you haven't
captured your intent very clearly. Heart beats are certainly
objective. I say, the only human motivations are the classic ones
such as greed, lust, love, hate, conscious intent to achieve some
goal, and so on. Often they are deliberate. Sometimes, (but rarely),
unconcious, and then described precisely as "unconscious motivations"
or "unconscious motives".
> > I never claimed that all motives *had* to be conscious.
>
> Well then why do you oppose my contention that the human heart-
> beat is motivated by the desire to provide blood to the organs?
Because it involves symbols and knowledge that are not available
to humans in all cases. An stone age man is not motivated to
provide blood to his organs! We should not speak of his body
being motivated, or having a motive to do something, else we
descend to the truly ridiculous and announce that every molecular
motion has a motivation.
> It is a motivation no different than the motivation to
> consume food, except that it is unconscious.
No; an unconscious motive is characterized by a person seeking
an end in terms of notions and concepts available to him; for
example, a man may have an unconscious motive to impress his
girl friend.
> > Is a small baby motivated to move blood through
> > its organs?
>
> Yes, though not consciously so.
>
> > I think you mean something closer to "explanation" or
> > "reason". Can you think of two equivalent ways of saying
> > what you want to say (even if they are each several
> > sentences) without using the m-word?
>
> No.
>
> "Reason" implies the participation of the cerebral cortex.
Not in the way I meant it, e.g., what was the reason that
X happened, i.e. what is the explanation?
Sorry to have to repeat myself (exactly!), but it's easy
with email. Please address the following from my last
post, and say why you agree or disagree, or propose an
alternative theory:
I see a continuum here; at the "top" we commit actions
that are extremely deliberate, at the bottom, the entities
that we are could be said (in a sense only) to channel
blood through their veins. Perhaps we disagree on
where "motivation" fits on the continuum.
I don't see you distinguishing your use of "motivation" from
other terms in a way that captures the usual nuances. And I
think that a parallel thing goes on over our usages of
"altruism".
Now it's true that sometimes people speak of "unconscious
motivation", but I think that this is a pretty narrow
application, and that they're referring to something at
a pretty high level (e.g. status-seeking, insulting,
procrastinating). The usual sorts of things done
unconsciously (like crossing your legs or knotting your
brow) one does not speak of having a motive for.
Thanks,
Lee
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