From: Mike Lorrey (mlorrey@yahoo.com)
Date: Wed Aug 21 2002 - 17:11:19 MDT
--- Samantha Tennison <xytrope@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've been lurking on this list for quite some time,
> and I'm quite suprised that I have seen virtually no
> discussion on the disturbing trends occuring within
> the US since 9/11. From what I have gathered this
> list is home to free-thinkers, freedom lovers, and
> those seeking liberty from governmental tyranny in all
> of its guises.
THere's been quite a bit of it, actually.
>
> Although I saw brief mention of Operation TIPS, and
> Ashcroft's plan for to interning Americans and strip
> them of their consititutional rights - where is the
> outrage?
>
> Isn't anybody on this list the least bit nervous?
> >From where I'm sitting, we are quickly becoming a
> facist police state. Hasn't anybody here noticed
> this? Or perhaps you have noticed it, and those more
> radical here have decided to "tone it down" out of
> fear. Having scoured the archives back 5 or 6 years,
> I'm beginning to suspect this is indeed the case.
>
> I'm curios to hear what Max More, Lee Daniel Crocker,
> Michael Lorrey, and other radical freedom thinkers
> opinions are on these disturbing trends:
>
> A war declared on an unseen enemy without clearly
> defined end goals - portending a war, as Bush said,
> that could go on "indefinitely". (Orwells 1984).
Did FDR state on December 8th, 1941 when WWII would be over, and
specifically on August 11th, 1945? No he didn't. This is an
unreasonable thing to demand an answer to.
>
> A suspension of civil liberties - especially the 4th,
> 5th, 14th ammendments with the passage of the US
> Patriot Act. Doesn't anyone find the passage of this
> bill in the dark of night (374 pages!), and barely
> read if at all by our congress, the least bit
> suspicios?
I am highly concerned. However, I do believe that there is a sunset
measure in it, so I'm not so concerned that it will remain in force in
perpetuity without debate and reconsideration.
>
> The Padilla case, where an American, born on American
> soil has been denied due process - setting a dangerous
> legal precedent that could make any American vunerable
> to loosing ALL of their constitutional rights by
> executive decree.
The evidence so far indicates Padilla is an illegal combatant just as
several American Nazi saboteurs were in WWII and who were
constitutionally tried by military court and executed. Thus, Padilla is
no precedent.
>
> The formation of a Homeland Security Agency - the
> biggest re-structuring and collation of intelligence
> in american history - with all of the above - plus
> operation TIPS, this amounts to the KGB and the Stasi
> rolled into one.
And this is any different than the National Security Act of 1947 (which
I recommend reading to those who think this is anything new)?
>
> And, now Bush wants broad new powers in how he runs
> this agency - sounds exactly like what Hitler wanted
> back in 1933. If Bush gets his current wishes, the
> seperation of powers will be virtually eliminated.
Uh, not really. Bush simply wants to have the Homeland Defense Agency
operate more like any other military branch and less like the disloyal
and leak prone entrenched bureaucracies that make up the rest of the
government.
>
> And most disturbing their has been increasing talk of
> concentration camps for american citizens. Sure, this
> has been one of those things talked about by
> right-wing conspiracy nuts for years - but now
> Ashcroft himself is suggesting it! And FEMA is
> creating an infrastructure to "manage" 2 million
> "displaced" americans. Hmmmmm.
It is true I am a very pro-freedom radical. So much so that I deem it
of utmost importance that the US not just survive but win this
insurgency without any question, without quarter, and without
compromise. This is an insurgency in every sense of the word. There are
still many tens of thousands of muslims who've overstayed visas who are
evading government.
High trust societies (like any libertarian or anarcho-capitalist one)
cannot survive without distinct and strict filters against infiltration
and dilution by low trust individuals from low trust societies. Ours
has been seriously compromised, and it may take rather radical action
to right things.
No society faced with widespread and dedicated revolutionary
insurgencies has survived intact using kid gloved measures.
While the US government has demonstrated in the past that it is not
often to be trusted without extensive oversight, I still trust it far
more than I trust the insurgents, or those internationally who think
that they know better than we how to deal with this problem.
>
> All of this in addition to the technologies which we
> love being used in the most draconian of ways -
> biometric scanning (minority report), end of privacy,
> omni-surveillance, national ID's, Digital Angel
> tracking of our movements, and
>
> Reading our minds (NASA and Northwest Airlines).
>
> Where is this going to stop? Where is the tide
> fighting this. If this gets out of hand, who is to
> rescue us, the Chineese? yikes.
Who do you think is going to be the next threat after the muslim world
is put back in its place? The Chinese military accept that they will
have a war with us in this century as a matter of course, not just a
possibility.
>
> As people who follow closely technological trends
> know, that if this is the CONTEXT of our society, then
> all of the new technologies that will come online with
> micromachines and eventually nanotechnology seem to
> spell the end to true and meaningful extropy and
> enslavement for all of us.
I think we've all be highly negligent in failing to work toward
building a extropic island nation where we can be immune to
depradations upon our liberty. Once that is achieved, we can then
better achieve our other goals, and do so in the fellowship of other extropians.
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