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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev]
	=?utf-8?q?R=C4=83spuns=3A_Personal_opinion_on_the_f?=
	=?utf-8?q?ee_market_from_a_worried_local_trader?=
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Does an unlimited blocksize imply the lack of a fee market?  Isn't every
miner able to set their minimum accepted fee or transaction acceptance
algorithm?
On Jul 29, 2015 5:54 PM, "s7r via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> We could care less about you selling your bitcoins or moving to
> something else.
>
> What we care more is keeping bitcoin a successful project which offers
> clear benefits to the world. I agree a fee market is good and needed,
> and transactions shouldn't be free ever, but users should also be able
> to transact fast and relatively cheap, as opposite to the competition,
> or at least with the same costs, so people won't move to something else.
>
> The more people use bitcoin, the more demand we have on the market for
> BTC, the higher BTC/FIAT rate will be, more people will become
> interested in mining and so on. Bitcoin is not a rich-only-private-club,
> it's an open, global, decentralized payment network. The less people use
> it... I guess you figured it out.
>
> So we could care less that you will go away in case the fee market won't
> become absurd or too expensive to use for most users. Having some
> offchain solution for small transactions would be a good idea, but this
> doesn't mean we should make small transactions impossible due to absurd
> fees.
>
> On 7/29/2015 8:47 PM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> >> When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee
> > market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
> >
> > I believe that pretty well sums up where we=E2=80=99re headed if transa=
ction
> > rate is artificially limited, whether that be by maximum block size
> > limit or something else.  A fee market will necessarily include more
> > than just Bitcoin.  The reality is it=E2=80=99s very easy to trade valu=
e across
> > different blockchains, and thus a fee market will bleed value from
> > Bitcoin and give it to alternative blockchains.  If Bitcoin=E2=80=99s b=
locks are
> > at maximum capacity, people will exchange for something that allows the=
m
> > to transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment.  This add=
s
> > value to the alternative blockchain and removes it from Bitcoin.
> >
> > Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone is
> > mistaken.
> >
> >
> > *From:* Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:09 AM
> > *To:* bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> > *Subject:* [bitcoin-dev] R=C4=83spuns: Personal opinion on the fee mark=
et
> > from a worried local trader
> >
> > I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let me
> > rephrase it for you,
> >
> > People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin
> > transactions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees
> > that establish the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin
> > transactions. The people are free to use they money for whatever they
> > like, but you should understand that Bitcoin transactions are not free.
> >
> > I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would b=
e
> > the first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam or gamble=
,
> > but they would have to pay for it.
> >
> > When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee market=
,
> > they would be free to use any altcoin they want.
> >
> > Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more important
> > players will remain, those that need it the most. The other players are
> > free to use whatever altcoin they wish.
> >
> >
> > =C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail.co=
m> a
> > scris:
> >
> >
> > "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. The
> > people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."
> >
> > so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don't
> > need Bitcoin.
> > Who are you to say what people need to use money for?
> > This statement goes against the freedom of decentralization and
> > financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to provide.
> >
> > It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit, and tha=
t
> > requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's simple
> > physics, other time wait times will become unbearable for those not
> > willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean
> > bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://twitter.com/gubatron
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev
> > <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> > <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hello,
> >
> >     I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees woul=
d
> >     scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferring bank
> >     transfers or other payment methods. This does not make sense for me=
.
> >     If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down
> >     and so do the fees. The others remain.
> >
> >     Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand fo=
r
> >     bitcoin transactions and the available supply (given by the block
> >     size). The fee is the price that finds this equilibrium.
> >
> >     If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the
> >     spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people
> >     transacting very low amounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin
> >     would remain.
> >
> >     Please allow this fee market to form...
> >
> >     In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run
> >     Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my best to
> >     tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code. If
> >     Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the coins
> >     and leave. Nothing is for free.
> >
> >     I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards
> >     expressing my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader,
> >     computer engineer, with a reasonable understanding of free markets.
> >     And I'm running only one full node.
> >
> >     Kind regards,
> >     Valentin
> >
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >     bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >     <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> >     https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

--001a113d5b887491d1051c0f7be8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">Does an unlimited blocksize imply the lack of a fee market?=
=C2=A0 Isn&#39;t every miner able to set their minimum accepted fee or tran=
saction acceptance algorithm?</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jul 29, 2015 5:54 PM, &quot;s7r via bitcoin-d=
ev&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitco=
in-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">We could care less about you selling your bitco=
ins or moving to<br>
something else.<br>
<br>
What we care more is keeping bitcoin a successful project which offers<br>
clear benefits to the world. I agree a fee market is good and needed,<br>
and transactions shouldn&#39;t be free ever, but users should also be able<=
br>
to transact fast and relatively cheap, as opposite to the competition,<br>
or at least with the same costs, so people won&#39;t move to something else=
.<br>
<br>
The more people use bitcoin, the more demand we have on the market for<br>
BTC, the higher BTC/FIAT rate will be, more people will become<br>
interested in mining and so on. Bitcoin is not a rich-only-private-club,<br=
>
it&#39;s an open, global, decentralized payment network. The less people us=
e<br>
it... I guess you figured it out.<br>
<br>
So we could care less that you will go away in case the fee market won&#39;=
t<br>
become absurd or too expensive to use for most users. Having some<br>
offchain solution for small transactions would be a good idea, but this<br>
doesn&#39;t mean we should make small transactions impossible due to absurd=
<br>
fees.<br>
<br>
On 7/29/2015 8:47 PM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee<b=
r>
&gt; market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I believe that pretty well sums up where we=E2=80=99re headed if trans=
action<br>
&gt; rate is artificially limited, whether that be by maximum block size<br=
>
&gt; limit or something else.=C2=A0 A fee market will necessarily include m=
ore<br>
&gt; than just Bitcoin.=C2=A0 The reality is it=E2=80=99s very easy to trad=
e value across<br>
&gt; different blockchains, and thus a fee market will bleed value from<br>
&gt; Bitcoin and give it to alternative blockchains.=C2=A0 If Bitcoin=E2=80=
=99s blocks are<br>
&gt; at maximum capacity, people will exchange for something that allows th=
em<br>
&gt; to transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment.=C2=A0 Th=
is adds<br>
&gt; value to the alternative blockchain and removes it from Bitcoin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone is<b=
r>
&gt; mistaken.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; *From:* Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev<br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bi=
tcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:09 AM<br>
&gt; *To:* <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin=
-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bi=
tcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; *Subject:* [bitcoin-dev] R=C4=83spuns: Personal opinion on the fee mar=
ket<br>
&gt; from a worried local trader<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let me=
<br>
&gt; rephrase it for you,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin<b=
r>
&gt; transactions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees<b=
r>
&gt; that establish the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin<br=
>
&gt; transactions. The people are free to use they money for whatever they<=
br>
&gt; like, but you should understand that Bitcoin transactions are not free=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would =
be<br>
&gt; the first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam or gambl=
e,<br>
&gt; but they would have to pay for it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee marke=
t,<br>
&gt; they would be free to use any altcoin they want.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more important<br>
&gt; players will remain, those that need it the most. The other players ar=
e<br>
&gt; free to use whatever altcoin they wish.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:gubatron@gmail.com">gubatron@gmail.com</a>&gt; a<br>
&gt; scris:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. Th=
e<br>
&gt; people that actually need Bitcoin would remain.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don&#3=
9;t<br>
&gt; need Bitcoin.<br>
&gt; Who are you to say what people need to use money for?<br>
&gt; This statement goes against the freedom of decentralization and<br>
&gt; financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to provide.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It&#39;s an open network and it will be used as most users see fit, an=
d that<br>
&gt; requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it&#39;s simp=
le<br>
&gt; physics, other time wait times will become unbearable for those not<br=
>
&gt; willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean<br>
&gt; bitcoins isn&#39;t useful, and if bitcoin isn&#39;t useful, it&#39;s w=
orthless.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://twitter.com/gubatron" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_=
blank">http://twitter.com/gubatron</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-d=
ev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bi=
tcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have been reading an argument saying that paying =
higher fees would<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, p=
referring bank<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transfers or other payment methods. This does not m=
ake sense for me.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin transa=
ctions goes down<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and so do the fees. The others remain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Fee market means that an equilibrium is found betwe=
en the demand for<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bitcoin transactions and the available supply (give=
n by the block<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0size). The fee is the price that finds this equilib=
rium.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to =
leave are the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and per=
haps people<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transacting very low amounts. The people that actua=
lly need Bitcoin<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would remain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please allow this fee market to form...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will =
refuse to run<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will=
 do my best to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running=
 such code. If<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sel=
l all the coins<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and leave. Nothing is for free.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt s=
trongly towards<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expressing my opinion here. I&#39;m only a local Bi=
tcoin trader,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0computer engineer, with a reasonable understanding =
of free markets.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And I&#39;m running only one full node.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kind regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Valentin<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation=
.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linu=
xfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.=
linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--001a113d5b887491d1051c0f7be8--