Return-Path: <rryananizer@gmail.com> Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3633484 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 03:41:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-oi0-f49.google.com (mail-oi0-f49.google.com [209.85.218.49]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83D887C for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Thu, 30 Jul 2015 03:41:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: by oigi136 with SMTP id i136so15767230oig.1 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 20:41:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=OLxYObbu+e5vm/pBjVcKjCDJBD9S/HKrjtLSlHv2BD8=; b=XtrbAOQi0QR0kM4w2u03kuuDfrz+cqBAfA6FHazcZhBcQWg7tFmPvfZb20arts/gva QLLpF5KF7BUH/uZNF7/keAGjMp4Z9LpmV04eYb0JYGkirb+5eQnfmc0WZVFEcGnjNozw k/xuRSPNVbyf6yVM0q5on4sboga6Jm7MuWmCVYhmyBXGrnGArAmLvGBG0KY/iXJQCuGI cyjEyr6PhEUgkzdxhO5agH3fMIzNb8PPGzBOonFix+JQTbVqsGLcoVH+TblYYUsTSIGT nO9cSfHCEoZRexJZfcq99r1tjih5tbnvOR3DvZH4oGyFmSD8/pNXBU4aBKUKppYhFbhK G56Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.96.8 with SMTP id u8mr42048776oib.77.1438227704875; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 20:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.220.6 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 20:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.202.220.6 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 20:41:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55B959A2.9020402@sky-ip.org> References: <CADZB0_ZgDMhVgCUh2PTAPDL7k_W8QGt_HLYdkwv_qQ5xEMn8HA@mail.gmail.com> <543015348.4948849.1438178962054.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <COL131-DS3F7339BCCA36BEFD1755ACD8C0@phx.gbl> <55B959A2.9020402@sky-ip.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 22:41:44 -0500 Message-ID: <CAF_2MyVAXg9788gatEQ-t4=8rJxXdkf9DA45uF5_gksDUM6b=A@mail.gmail.com> From: Ryan Butler <rryananizer@gmail.com> To: s7r@sky-ip.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d5b887491d1051c0f7be8 X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FIN_FREE,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] =?utf-8?q?R=C4=83spuns=3A_Personal_opinion_on_the_f?= =?utf-8?q?ee_market_from_a_worried_local_trader?= X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 03:41:46 -0000 --001a113d5b887491d1051c0f7be8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does an unlimited blocksize imply the lack of a fee market? Isn't every miner able to set their minimum accepted fee or transaction acceptance algorithm? On Jul 29, 2015 5:54 PM, "s7r via bitcoin-dev" < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > We could care less about you selling your bitcoins or moving to > something else. > > What we care more is keeping bitcoin a successful project which offers > clear benefits to the world. I agree a fee market is good and needed, > and transactions shouldn't be free ever, but users should also be able > to transact fast and relatively cheap, as opposite to the competition, > or at least with the same costs, so people won't move to something else. > > The more people use bitcoin, the more demand we have on the market for > BTC, the higher BTC/FIAT rate will be, more people will become > interested in mining and so on. Bitcoin is not a rich-only-private-club, > it's an open, global, decentralized payment network. The less people use > it... I guess you figured it out. > > So we could care less that you will go away in case the fee market won't > become absurd or too expensive to use for most users. Having some > offchain solution for small transactions would be a good idea, but this > doesn't mean we should make small transactions impossible due to absurd > fees. > > On 7/29/2015 8:47 PM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote: > >> When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee > > market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want. > > > > I believe that pretty well sums up where we=E2=80=99re headed if transa= ction > > rate is artificially limited, whether that be by maximum block size > > limit or something else. A fee market will necessarily include more > > than just Bitcoin. The reality is it=E2=80=99s very easy to trade valu= e across > > different blockchains, and thus a fee market will bleed value from > > Bitcoin and give it to alternative blockchains. If Bitcoin=E2=80=99s b= locks are > > at maximum capacity, people will exchange for something that allows the= m > > to transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment. This add= s > > value to the alternative blockchain and removes it from Bitcoin. > > > > Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone is > > mistaken. > > > > > > *From:* Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev > > <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:09 AM > > *To:* bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> > > *Subject:* [bitcoin-dev] R=C4=83spuns: Personal opinion on the fee mark= et > > from a worried local trader > > > > I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let me > > rephrase it for you, > > > > People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin > > transactions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees > > that establish the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin > > transactions. The people are free to use they money for whatever they > > like, but you should understand that Bitcoin transactions are not free. > > > > I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would b= e > > the first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam or gamble= , > > but they would have to pay for it. > > > > When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee market= , > > they would be free to use any altcoin they want. > > > > Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more important > > players will remain, those that need it the most. The other players are > > free to use whatever altcoin they wish. > > > > > > =C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail.co= m> a > > scris: > > > > > > "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. The > > people that actually need Bitcoin would remain." > > > > so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don't > > need Bitcoin. > > Who are you to say what people need to use money for? > > This statement goes against the freedom of decentralization and > > financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to provide. > > > > It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit, and tha= t > > requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's simple > > physics, other time wait times will become unbearable for those not > > willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean > > bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless. > > > > > > > > http://twitter.com/gubatron > > > > On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev > > <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees woul= d > > scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferring bank > > transfers or other payment methods. This does not make sense for me= . > > If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down > > and so do the fees. The others remain. > > > > Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand fo= r > > bitcoin transactions and the available supply (given by the block > > size). The fee is the price that finds this equilibrium. > > > > If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the > > spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people > > transacting very low amounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin > > would remain. > > > > Please allow this fee market to form... > > > > In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run > > Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my best to > > tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code. If > > Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the coins > > and leave. Nothing is for free. > > > > I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards > > expressing my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader, > > computer engineer, with a reasonable understanding of free markets. > > And I'm running only one full node. > > > > Kind regards, > > Valentin > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --001a113d5b887491d1051c0f7be8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <p dir=3D"ltr">Does an unlimited blocksize imply the lack of a fee market?= =C2=A0 Isn't every miner able to set their minimum accepted fee or tran= saction acceptance algorithm?</p> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Jul 29, 2015 5:54 PM, "s7r via bitcoin-d= ev" <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitco= in-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><bl= ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #= ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">We could care less about you selling your bitco= ins or moving to<br> something else.<br> <br> What we care more is keeping bitcoin a successful project which offers<br> clear benefits to the world. I agree a fee market is good and needed,<br> and transactions shouldn't be free ever, but users should also be able<= br> to transact fast and relatively cheap, as opposite to the competition,<br> or at least with the same costs, so people won't move to something else= .<br> <br> The more people use bitcoin, the more demand we have on the market for<br> BTC, the higher BTC/FIAT rate will be, more people will become<br> interested in mining and so on. Bitcoin is not a rich-only-private-club,<br= > it's an open, global, decentralized payment network. The less people us= e<br> it... I guess you figured it out.<br> <br> So we could care less that you will go away in case the fee market won'= t<br> become absurd or too expensive to use for most users. Having some<br> offchain solution for small transactions would be a good idea, but this<br> doesn't mean we should make small transactions impossible due to absurd= <br> fees.<br> <br> On 7/29/2015 8:47 PM, Raystonn . via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br> >> When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee<b= r> > market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.<br> ><br> > I believe that pretty well sums up where we=E2=80=99re headed if trans= action<br> > rate is artificially limited, whether that be by maximum block size<br= > > limit or something else.=C2=A0 A fee market will necessarily include m= ore<br> > than just Bitcoin.=C2=A0 The reality is it=E2=80=99s very easy to trad= e value across<br> > different blockchains, and thus a fee market will bleed value from<br> > Bitcoin and give it to alternative blockchains.=C2=A0 If Bitcoin=E2=80= =99s blocks are<br> > at maximum capacity, people will exchange for something that allows th= em<br> > to transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment.=C2=A0 Th= is adds<br> > value to the alternative blockchain and removes it from Bitcoin.<br> ><br> > Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone is<b= r> > mistaken.<br> ><br> ><br> > *From:* Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev<br> > <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bi= tcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>><br> > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:09 AM<br> > *To:* <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin= -dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br> > <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bi= tcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>><br> > *Subject:* [bitcoin-dev] R=C4=83spuns: Personal opinion on the fee mar= ket<br> > from a worried local trader<br> ><br> > I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let me= <br> > rephrase it for you,<br> ><br> > People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin<b= r> > transactions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees<b= r> > that establish the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin<br= > > transactions. The people are free to use they money for whatever they<= br> > like, but you should understand that Bitcoin transactions are not free= .<br> ><br> > I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would = be<br> > the first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam or gambl= e,<br> > but they would have to pay for it.<br> ><br> > When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee marke= t,<br> > they would be free to use any altcoin they want.<br> ><br> > Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more important<br> > players will remain, those that need it the most. The other players ar= e<br> > free to use whatever altcoin they wish.<br> ><br> ><br> > =C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon <<a href=3D"ma= ilto:gubatron@gmail.com">gubatron@gmail.com</a>> a<br> > scris:<br> ><br> ><br> > "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. Th= e<br> > people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."<br> ><br> > so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don= 9;t<br> > need Bitcoin.<br> > Who are you to say what people need to use money for?<br> > This statement goes against the freedom of decentralization and<br> > financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to provide.<br> ><br> > It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit, an= d that<br> > requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's simp= le<br> > physics, other time wait times will become unbearable for those not<br= > > willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean<br> > bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful, it's w= orthless.<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > <a href=3D"http://twitter.com/gubatron" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_= blank">http://twitter.com/gubatron</a><br> ><br> > On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev<br> > <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-d= ev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br> > <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bi= tcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>>> wrote:<br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello,<br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have been reading an argument saying that paying = higher fees would<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, p= referring bank<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transfers or other payment methods. This does not m= ake sense for me.<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin transa= ctions goes down<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and so do the fees. The others remain.<br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Fee market means that an equilibrium is found betwe= en the demand for<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bitcoin transactions and the available supply (give= n by the block<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0size). The fee is the price that finds this equilib= rium.<br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to = leave are the<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and per= haps people<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transacting very low amounts. The people that actua= lly need Bitcoin<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would remain.<br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please allow this fee market to form...<br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will = refuse to run<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will= do my best to<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running= such code. If<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sel= l all the coins<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and leave. Nothing is for free.<br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt s= trongly towards<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expressing my opinion here. I'm only a local Bi= tcoin trader,<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0computer engineer, with a reasonable understanding = of free markets.<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And I'm running only one full node.<br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kind regards,<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Valentin<br> ><br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation= .org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linu= xfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailma= n/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.= linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br> ><br> ><br> _______________________________________________<br> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.= linuxfoundation.org</a><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br> </blockquote></div> --001a113d5b887491d1051c0f7be8--