1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
|
Return-Path: <djpnewton@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
[172.17.192.35])
by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7A279C
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:43:12 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-yk0-f171.google.com (mail-yk0-f171.google.com
[209.85.160.171])
by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B8ADF6
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:43:12 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by ykdt21 with SMTP id t21so2854900ykd.3
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113;
h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to
:cc:content-type;
bh=GELc5y7Z6VBY/2oWmH6Mp93xEYwd0kVEQIkqvCMgL8w=;
b=X8UyTKx/Lkm8jgfPfoKw/oh7EZ4HfC930TPfwMwaspUFxyBOjo59blyTMJV3DeSKdB
usw0rPbW7tke5dgAauiNHrLkG0OZnZeJhGN57SWsO36Vt44T03rYwITjwXGYh0HgIpo9
DVOsj15O5L8Lwo0PtwzsZZqV5EF5VylC565pjVRIjRD9Y3bKh6FLFMGneUkrNQGuFeLS
CGHzFtrXTKPq6YKgsVBj4W+oSSks6ZboIMPuAQK49+A3s0sB7+zXqzM/W8uc+MSP8vuR
tUtCEMgjkLqZAebvnBaYaVWpCC6Ur2IX1XqJBs6Yx05liLqoXEinqqmDzDJ6yFkwdnnp
+Fog==
X-Received: by 10.129.129.66 with SMTP id r63mr4407512ywf.87.1444866191337;
Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.129.45.66 with HTTP; Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:42:31 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <561ED92C.2090203@sky-ip.org>
References: <561E2B09.3090509@sky-ip.org> <561E7283.2080507@gmail.com>
<561ED92C.2090203@sky-ip.org>
From: Daniel Newton <djpnewton@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:42:31 +1300
Message-ID: <CAOUBo+-7hbaJ9YMG6-WfB-=+6+9mn8U_vjQYqfNf6NwTA0p2yw@mail.gmail.com>
To: s7r@sky-ip.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c080096154d7e0522192059
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW
autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
smtp1.linux-foundation.org
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Lightning Network's effect on miner fees
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 23:43:13 -0000
--94eb2c080096154d7e0522192059
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
You could make the same argument about changetip, coinbase, bitstamp or any
other entity that operates off chain transactions.
1) There is probably no way of blocking them or enforcing fee collection
from entities that operate off chain transactions
2) They all have to settle on chain eventually
On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:37 AM, s7r via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 10/14/2015 6:19 PM, Paul Sztorc wrote:
> > LN transactions are a substitute good for on-chain transactions.
> >
> > Therefore, demand for on-chain transactions will decrease as a
> > result of LN, meaning that fees will be lower than they would
> > otherwise be.
> >
> > However, the two are also perfect compliments, as LN transactions
> > cannot take place at all without periodic on-chain transactions.
> >
> > The demand for *all* Bitcoin transactions (LN and otherwise) is
> > itself a function of innumerable factors, one of which is the
> > question "Which form of money [Bitcoin or not-Bitcoin] do I think
> > my trading partners will be using?". By supporting a higher rate of
> > (higher-quality) Bitcoin transactions, the net result is highly
> > uncertain, but will probably be that LN actually increases trading
> > fees.
>
> Probably yes. But probably no. Having less hashing power is not good,
> and it's unrelated to scalability and decentralization, it's related
> to security. Of course we could argue that the hashing power is not
> super decentralized at this moment but it's unrelated to the topic.
>
> I'd rather have less decentralized big amount of hashing power as
> opposite to less hashing power.
>
> One theory, very close to yours, is that if Bitcoin transactions
> demand grows so high that we need the lightning network, there should
> be plenty of on chain transactions for miners to collect fees from.
>
> I haven't yet seen the incentives of everyone involved in lightning
> network (payment channel end points, hub operators, miners, etc.) but
> would it make sense to enforce a % of the fees collected by on payment
> hubs to be spent as miner fees, regardless if the transactions from
> that hub go on the main chain or not?
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32)
>
> iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJWHtksAAoJEIN/pSyBJlsR9Y0H+QE/XdW7yauhrNJtp2eIBPg9
> zVUanzR2LT0zAkeF5/Xsx3PFoypALOV7R0YNL29jI3F2XkZA8v24wfNvPi0DETcC
> ZOxw4G1erIEjjj51Qz4M7okjQecJxPHOJ+Nz6iNZEDFcZG2b15phCRSQKZwSHP+b
> Erw6a4NPs1foieZyk260KSOB8lFs9e8bUJfXd4FfA7l60RA9582K6p05aqVtehFW
> ONTe8ULv8F0ba+EzVyTodzzY6ehjD+uc31zL6mDFIbiW+InivFbfi2uDVN1BP/US
> m99lLHvDEthnkTokFrbDu81kXdD0lHwIu4O0EMzCnw2E0vWi3sGKd+M0P0sv4WA=
> =1qxh
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--94eb2c080096154d7e0522192059
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>You could make the same argument about changetip=
, coinbase, bitstamp or any other entity that operates off chain transactio=
ns.<br><br></div>1) There is probably no way of blocking them or enforcing =
fee collection from entities that operate off chain transactions<br></div>2=
) They all have to settle on chain eventually <br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:37 AM, s7=
r via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o=
rg</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">-----BEGIN PGP S=
IGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
Hash: SHA256<br>
<br>
On 10/14/2015 6:19 PM, Paul Sztorc wrote:<br>
> LN transactions are a substitute good for on-chain transactions.<br>
><br>
> Therefore, demand for on-chain transactions will decrease as a<br>
> result of LN, meaning that fees will be lower than they would<br>
> otherwise be.<br>
><br>
> However, the two are also perfect compliments, as LN transactions<br>
> cannot take place at all without periodic on-chain transactions.<br>
><br>
> The demand for *all* Bitcoin transactions (LN and otherwise) is<br>
> itself a function of innumerable factors, one of which is the<br>
> question "Which form of money [Bitcoin or not-Bitcoin] do I think=
<br>
> my trading partners will be using?". By supporting a higher rate =
of<br>
> (higher-quality) Bitcoin transactions, the net result is highly<br>
> uncertain, but will probably be that LN actually increases trading<br>
> fees.<br>
<br>
Probably yes. But probably no. Having less hashing power is not good,<br>
and it's unrelated to scalability and decentralization, it's relate=
d<br>
to security. Of course we could argue that the hashing power is not<br>
super decentralized at this moment but it's unrelated to the topic.<br>
<br>
I'd rather have less decentralized big amount of hashing power as<br>
opposite to less hashing power.<br>
<br>
One theory, very close to yours, is that if Bitcoin transactions<br>
demand grows so high that we need the lightning network, there should<br>
be plenty of on chain transactions for miners to collect fees from.<br>
<br>
I haven't yet seen the incentives of everyone involved in lightning<br>
network (payment channel end points, hub operators, miners, etc.) but<br>
would it make sense to enforce a % of the fees collected by on payment<br>
hubs to be spent as miner fees, regardless if the transactions from<br>
that hub go on the main chain or not?<br>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32)<br>
<br>
iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJWHtksAAoJEIN/pSyBJlsR9Y0H+QE/XdW7yauhrNJtp2eIBPg9<br>
zVUanzR2LT0zAkeF5/Xsx3PFoypALOV7R0YNL29jI3F2XkZA8v24wfNvPi0DETcC<br>
ZOxw4G1erIEjjj51Qz4M7okjQecJxPHOJ+Nz6iNZEDFcZG2b15phCRSQKZwSHP+b<br>
Erw6a4NPs1foieZyk260KSOB8lFs9e8bUJfXd4FfA7l60RA9582K6p05aqVtehFW<br>
ONTe8ULv8F0ba+EzVyTodzzY6ehjD+uc31zL6mDFIbiW+InivFbfi2uDVN1BP/US<br>
m99lLHvDEthnkTokFrbDu81kXdD0lHwIu4O0EMzCnw2E0vWi3sGKd+M0P0sv4WA=3D<br>
=3D1qxh<br>
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
--94eb2c080096154d7e0522192059--
|
