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From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 00:06:27 -0400
To: Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io>,
	Jonathan Levin <jonathan.levin@sant.ox.ac.uk>
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Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Economics of information propagation
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving s=
mall miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait f=
or the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. This=
 results in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most =
blocks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quick=
ly than the smaller miners.

Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block header=
s and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely=
 harmful to the security of Bitcoin.


On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io> =
wrote:
>As soon as we switch to headers
>first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation
>time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required
>to
>propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the
>block is
>fully validated.
>On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Levin"
><jonathan.levin@sant.ox.ac.uk>
>wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of
>> mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I
>think it
>> is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at
>play and
>> determine what implications this has for the transaction fee market.
>>
>> As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does
>not
>> stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and
>> including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather the
>> increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result of
>slower
>> propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case
>calculations
>> but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason
>being the
>> 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread throughout
>the
>> time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time
>miners are
>> notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hence
>are no
>> longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block.
>>
>> I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the
>probability
>> mass function that a block hears about my block in any given second
>as a
>> function of the block size. Although there is likely to be
>significant
>> noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships with
>the
>> time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done
>this? I
>> have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally I
>would
>> like analytical solutions.
>>
>> Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that
>propagation
>> delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing
>power.
>> Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large
>> blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would
>increase
>> orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have not
>> invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner
>hears
>> about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance
>that
>> there is already a block in circulation.  Large miners can increase
>the
>> time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by
>increasing the
>> size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a
>small
>> miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 percent
>> chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner.
>There
>> is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block published
>after
>> a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full
>propagation. Am I
>> getting this right that the probability of a miner=E2=80=99s block bei=
ng
>orphaned
>> is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first to
>find a
>> valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone
>else in
>> the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block.
>>
>> One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after
>hearing
>> about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know
>in
>> advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have
>just
>> found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan?
>>
>> Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any
>> feedback.
>>
>> Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to
>capture
>> information on network propagation and would invite any suggestions
>of any
>> other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of
>software.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, <
>> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> <
>> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to
>> >       bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >       bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >       bitcoin-development-owner@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >   1. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Oliver Egginger)
>> >   2. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Christophe Biocca)
>> >   3. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Gmail)
>> >   4. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Mike Caldwell)
>> >   5. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Justin A)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200
>> > From: Oliver Egginger <bitcoin@olivere.de>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> > To: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> > Message-ID: <5354154C.1080908@olivere.de>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>> >
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > just my two 'cents':
>> >
>> > Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when
>they
>> > mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use
>> > except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
>> > established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
>> >
>> > - oliver
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:19:38 -0400
>> > From: Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca@gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> > To: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> > Message-ID:
>> >       <CANOOu=3D9=3D
>> TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x+6F4MOqM_A@mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8
>> >
>> > Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with
>slang
>> > for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means
>"louse"
>> > in Turkish as well.
>> >
>> > Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all
>the
>> > short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
>> >
>> > On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger
><bitcoin@olivere.de>
>> wrote:
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >> just my two 'cents':
>> >>
>> >> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when
>they
>> >> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common
>use
>> >> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
>> >> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
>> >>
>> >> - oliver
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>and
>> their
>> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>today!
>> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:32:26 -0500
>> > From: Gmail <will.yager@gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> > Message-ID: <B687D4AD-263F-4594-BE7A-FF238B8DF7AF@gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
>> >
>> > People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to the idea
>of
>> using the word "credit" as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is not
>a
>> credit-based system.
>> >
>> > However, given that the average person has close to no
>understanding of
>> what "credit" means, and probably no concern for the distinction even
>if
>> they do know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily
>> understandable "credit" as our human-friendly unit.
>> >
>> > Do others agree that "credits" as a unit of account has a desirable
>> futuristic connotation?
>> >
>> > Will
>> >
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>> > Name: smime.p7s
>> > Type: application/pkcs7-signature
>> > Size: 1593 bytes
>> > Desc: not available
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 4
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:28:34 -0400
>> > From: Mike Caldwell <mcaldwell@swipeclock.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> > To: Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca@gmail.com>
>> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> > Message-ID: <4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C8F56B41ED@swipeclock.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
>> >
>> > By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a
>cultural
>> reference in the name.  For example "satoshi" would be a reference to
>> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of
>who
>> Satoshi turns out to be.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" <
>> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with
>slang
>> >> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means
>"louse"
>> >> in Turkish as well.
>> >>
>> >> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all
>the
>> >> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
>> >>
>> >>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger
><bitcoin@olivere.de>
>> wrote:
>> >>> Hello,
>> >>>
>> >>> just my two 'cents':
>> >>>
>> >>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when
>they
>> >>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common
>use
>> >>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
>> >>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
>> >>>
>> >>> - oliver
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>and
>> their
>> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>today!
>> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>and
>> their
>> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>today!
>> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 5
>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:16:35 -0400
>> > From: Justin A <allport@gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account
>> > To: Mike Caldwell <mcaldwell@swipeclock.com>
>> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> > Message-ID:
>> >       <
>> CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86ahCh+7r96UkxZwneQ@mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"
>> >
>> > <delurk>
>> >
>> > What about "ubit", pronounced "YOU-bit", representing 1e-6 bitcoin?
>Easy
>> to
>> > say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required
>2
>> > decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one
>want?
>> >
>> > </delurk>
>> >
>> > Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern
>> hemisphere
>> > winter if I can learn enough.
>> > On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, "Mike Caldwell" <mcaldwell@swipeclock.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a
>cultural
>> >> reference in the name.  For example "satoshi" would be a reference
>to
>> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless
>of who
>> >> Satoshi turns out to be.
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >>> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" <
>> >> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with
>slang
>> >>> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means
>"louse"
>> >>> in Turkish as well.
>> >>>
>> >>> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all
>the
>> >>> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral.
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger
><bitcoin@olivere.de>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>> Hello,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> just my two 'cents':
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when
>they
>> >>>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common
>use
>> >>>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has
>> >>>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> - oliver
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>and
>> >> their
>> >>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>today!
>> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>and
>> >> their
>> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>today!
>> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>and
>> their
>> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
>> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>today!
>> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>> >>
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>>
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>> > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready
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>> > ------------------------------
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>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> > End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 35, Issue 72
>> > ***************************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform
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>Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready
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