Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Wc5Vp-0005TW-6E for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 21 Apr 2014 04:07:21 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of petertodd.org designates 62.13.148.100 as permitted sender) client-ip=62.13.148.100; envelope-from=pete@petertodd.org; helo=outmail148100.authsmtp.co.uk; Received: from outmail148100.authsmtp.co.uk ([62.13.148.100]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1Wc5Vl-0005bE-M9 for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Mon, 21 Apr 2014 04:07:21 +0000 Received: from mail-c235.authsmtp.com (mail-c235.authsmtp.com [62.13.128.235]) by punt15.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id s3L47Bxr005482; Mon, 21 Apr 2014 05:07:11 +0100 (BST) Received: from android-9217c60504b57c40.netgear.com (184-14-125-77.dsl1.chtn.wv.frontiernet.net [184.14.125.77]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.authsmtp.com (8.14.2/8.14.2/) with ESMTP id s3L46fFi076310 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 Apr 2014 05:06:58 +0100 (BST) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <52CDA01B-13BF-4BB8-AC9A-5FBBB324FD15@sant.ox.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 From: Peter Todd Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 00:06:27 -0400 To: Mark Friedenbach , Jonathan Levin Message-ID: X-Server-Quench: 69028e89-c90a-11e3-b802-002590a15da7 X-AuthReport-Spam: If SPAM / abuse - report it at: http://www.authsmtp.com/abuse X-AuthRoute: OCd2Yg0TA1ZNQRgX IjsJECJaVQIpKltL GxAVKBZePFsRUQkR aQdMdAMUGUUGAgsB AmIbW1FeUFp7WWo7 agJVcwRZfEtMWhtt V1dNRFdNFUsrAmAF AEhoCxl1cQZHeDB4 ZEZlXD5dVUR4fRN1 S1MHHG1XeGZhPWMC AkhYdR5UcAFPdx8U a1UrBXRDAzANdhES HhM4ODE3eDlSNilR RRkIIFQOdA4mFTk6 QBUDFi5nGkNNRiM9 KAYjI0IdG0BZKl81 KVIuUE4ZNBl6 X-Authentic-SMTP: 61633532353630.1023:706 X-AuthFastPath: 0 (Was 255) X-AuthSMTP-Origin: 184.14.125.77/465 X-AuthVirus-Status: No virus detected - but ensure you scan with your own anti-virus system. Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by punt15.authsmtp.com id s3L47Bxr005482 X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record X-Headers-End: 1Wc5Vl-0005bE-M9 Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Economics of information propagation X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 04:07:21 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving s= mall miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait f= or the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. This= results in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most = blocks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quick= ly than the smaller miners. Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block header= s and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely= harmful to the security of Bitcoin. On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach = wrote: >As soon as we switch to headers >first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation >time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required >to >propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the >block is >fully validated. >On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Levin" > >wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of >> mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I >think it >> is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at >play and >> determine what implications this has for the transaction fee market. >> >> As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does >not >> stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and >> including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather the >> increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result of >slower >> propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case >calculations >> but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason >being the >> 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread throughout >the >> time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time >miners are >> notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hence >are no >> longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block. >> >> I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the >probability >> mass function that a block hears about my block in any given second >as a >> function of the block size. Although there is likely to be >significant >> noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships with >the >> time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done >this? I >> have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally I >would >> like analytical solutions. >> >> Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that >propagation >> delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing >power. >> Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large >> blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would >increase >> orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have not >> invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner >hears >> about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance >that >> there is already a block in circulation. Large miners can increase >the >> time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by >increasing the >> size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a >small >> miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 percent >> chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner. >There >> is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block published >after >> a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full >propagation. Am I >> getting this right that the probability of a miner=E2=80=99s block bei= ng >orphaned >> is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first to >find a >> valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone >else in >> the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block. >> >> One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after >hearing >> about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know >in >> advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have >just >> found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan? >> >> Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any >> feedback. >> >> Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to >capture >> information on network propagation and would invite any suggestions >of any >> other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of >software. >> >> Best, >> >> Jonathan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, < >> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> < >> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: >> >> > Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to >> > bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> > bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net >> > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at >> > bitcoin-development-owner@lists.sourceforge.net >> > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> > than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..." >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Oliver Egginger) >> > 2. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Christophe Biocca) >> > 3. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Gmail) >> > 4. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Mike Caldwell) >> > 5. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Justin A) >> > >> > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200 >> > From: Oliver Egginger >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account >> > To: Bitcoin Development >> > Message-ID: <5354154C.1080908@olivere.de> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 >> > >> > Hello, >> > >> > just my two 'cents': >> > >> > Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when >they >> > mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use >> > except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has >> > established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. >> > >> > - oliver >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 2 >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:19:38 -0400 >> > From: Christophe Biocca >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account >> > To: Bitcoin Development >> > Message-ID: >> > > TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x+6F4MOqM_A@mail.gmail.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 >> > >> > Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with >slang >> > for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means >"louse" >> > in Turkish as well. >> > >> > Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all >the >> > short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. >> > >> > On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger > >> wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> >> >> just my two 'cents': >> >> >> >> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when >they >> >> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common >use >> >> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has >> >> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. >> >> >> >> - oliver >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >and >> their >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book >today! >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:32:26 -0500 >> > From: Gmail >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development >> > Message-ID: >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >> > >> > People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to the idea >of >> using the word "credit" as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is not >a >> credit-based system. >> > >> > However, given that the average person has close to no >understanding of >> what "credit" means, and probably no concern for the distinction even >if >> they do know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily >> understandable "credit" as our human-friendly unit. >> > >> > Do others agree that "credits" as a unit of account has a desirable >> futuristic connotation? >> > >> > Will >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... >> > Name: smime.p7s >> > Type: application/pkcs7-signature >> > Size: 1593 bytes >> > Desc: not available >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 4 >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:28:34 -0400 >> > From: Mike Caldwell >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account >> > To: Christophe Biocca >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development >> > Message-ID: <4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C8F56B41ED@swipeclock.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" >> > >> > By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a >cultural >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference to >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of >who >> Satoshi turns out to be. >> > >> > Mike >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" < >> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with >slang >> >> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means >"louse" >> >> in Turkish as well. >> >> >> >> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all >the >> >> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. >> >> >> >>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger > >> wrote: >> >>> Hello, >> >>> >> >>> just my two 'cents': >> >>> >> >>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when >they >> >>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common >use >> >>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has >> >>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. >> >>> >> >>> - oliver >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >and >> their >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book >today! >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >and >> their >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book >today! >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > Message: 5 >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:16:35 -0400 >> > From: Justin A >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account >> > To: Mike Caldwell >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development >> > Message-ID: >> > < >> CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86ahCh+7r96UkxZwneQ@mail.gmail.com> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >> > >> > >> > >> > What about "ubit", pronounced "YOU-bit", representing 1e-6 bitcoin? >Easy >> to >> > say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required >2 >> > decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one >want? >> > >> > >> > >> > Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern >> hemisphere >> > winter if I can learn enough. >> > On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, "Mike Caldwell" >> wrote: >> > >> >> By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a >cultural >> >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference >to >> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless >of who >> >> Satoshi turns out to be. >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >>> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" < >> >> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with >slang >> >>> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means >"louse" >> >>> in Turkish as well. >> >>> >> >>> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all >the >> >>> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. >> >>> >> >>>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger > >> >> wrote: >> >>>> Hello, >> >>>> >> >>>> just my two 'cents': >> >>>> >> >>>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when >they >> >>>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common >use >> >>>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has >> >>>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. >> >>>> >> >>>> - oliver >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >and >> >> their >> >>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> >>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book >today! >> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >and >> >> their >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book >today! >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >and >> their >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book >today! >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform >> > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software >> > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready >> > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration >Platform >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list >> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> > >> > >> > End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 35, Issue 72 >> > *************************************************** >> >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform >> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software >> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready >> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ >Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform >Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software >Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready >Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform >http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Bitcoin-development mailing list >Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: APG v1.1.1 iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTVJlDMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8 cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhTbNB/4lHTsUN/iee7H0UyBn +TDRgf1BSoUx9HP+vtwXzS0JkVQoxoB5x4Pls+ex7qIXGNxdG9EPYi1RqQ5A8RUo X2ntOL2pj6qTmW4aYxqqyihiQayLs5ixHPmJxqHv343g5ekqsKmBeDuWR4hXjUyZ 0Pfcp40Xd3eJ38dSbq98letl5eD+ryBPKYtb91Trumqa9S0WB8kw9IqNaXjlpfG1 lYuaVEllpaLpZW+4cx1mlPneS1GmLvloWhXf4Qh4X39VXECAjOAmNKh1atJCyT7H ugkOcx1F2Rxo5P3jNzBRJKyAD96sbOhKm4sX7rzSjhT3WJgyHtJm3wkeluDCOVbR QZqK =3DR7Tv -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----