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From: Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:54:38 -0500
Message-ID: <CAB3F3DsifkaCVE1xFvvn8+b-ixpq-NqmGd1vAS8V8niB9YLQsA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for
	wordlists
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Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
>>
>
>
> Copay (and all its clones) use it.
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and
>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a
>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making
>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all
>> documentation is written in English.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=
=E3=82=87=E3=81=AA <kinoshitajona@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is very sad.
>>>>
>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words=
.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (becaus=
e
>>>> he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for
>>>> "amateur"...
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain
>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down=
.
>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for
>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to
>>>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well said.  Thank you for telling of these experiences.  Now please,
>>> let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.
>>>
>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust
>>> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this
>>> down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in:
>>>
>>> =E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D =E3=82=8A=E3=82=
=86=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=
=93 =E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86
>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84 =E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84 =E3=81=8A=E3=81=
=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE =E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D =E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=
=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=E3=81=A4
>>>
>>> (Approximate translation:  =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin ha=
d been
>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)
>>>
>>> No, wait:  That is only a 12-word mnemonic.  We are probably talking
>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2=
=80=99s
>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:
>>>
>>> =E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=81=
=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=8B =E3=81=8B=E3=81=
=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86 =E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=E3=82=8B =E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=
=97 =E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F
>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F =E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=81=
=97 =E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F =E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA =E3=81=
=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=81=9D =E3=82=8D=E3=82=
=93=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=
=8F
>>> =E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80 =E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=81=
=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2 =E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=8F =E3=81=91=E3=81=
=95=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F =E3=81=93=E3=82=
=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91
>>>
>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?
>>> No?  Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the
>>> inverse case.
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many
>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too.  Then t=
hink
>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family an=
d
>>> friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks n=
eeded to
>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.
>>>
>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D=
 at all.  A
>>> =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.  Gibberish in a wholl=
y alien writing
>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings.  =
The
>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D fo=
r =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not
>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*:  He was using the world=E2=80=99s most ineff=
icient means
>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.
>>>
>>> ----
>>>
>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request:  Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=A5=
=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an
>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese
>>> users?  And what of the other strings I posted for other languages?
>>>
>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the
>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software:  Independent
>>> implementations.  =E2=80=94  I asked, because obviously, I myself do no=
t speak all
>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all.  *All.*
>>>
>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far,
>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question.
>>>
>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism
>>> of multi-language support.  I opened with a question about other langua=
ges,
>>> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish =
only!=E2=80=9D
>>>
>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever
>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restrict=
ed
>>> to English.  I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard
>>> called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, =
and four more
>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).
>>>
>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for
>>> use with that standard.
>>>
>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.
>>> I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.  I
>>> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually
>>> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...  It should=
 go
>>> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C
>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:
>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)  (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE)
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have =
nothing to hide.=E2=80=99
>>> No!  Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=94 nullius
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia
> @ematiu
> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!
>

--94eb2c0c387073d364056244fb86
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actuall=
y use it?</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ematiu@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ematiu@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">On Mo=
n, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></s=
pan><span class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>H=
as anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?<br></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div></span><div>Copay (and all its cl=
ones) use it.=C2=A0</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><br></div><div>If a feature of the standard has no=
t been(widely?) used in years, and isn&#39;t supported in any major wallet(=
?), it seems indicative it was a mistake to add it in the first place, sinc=
e it&#39;s a footgun in the making for some poor sap who can&#39;t even rea=
d English letters when almost all documentation is written in English.</div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div =
class=3D"m_7015119369442535395h5">On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius v=
ia bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion=
.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv><div class=3D"m_7015119369442535395h5"><span>On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +=
0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=82=87=E3=81=AA &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:kinoshitajona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kinoshitajona@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>
This is very sad.<br>
<br>
The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.<br>
<br>
I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he =
kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down &quot;aneter&quot; fo=
r &quot;amateur&quot;...<br>
<br></span>
[...]<span><br>
<br>
If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain proces=
ses the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.=C2=A0 Not=
 many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, =
taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.<br>
<br></span>
[...]<span><br>
<br>
Defining &quot;everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to=
 plan for&quot; is not a good way to move forward as a currency.<br>
</span></blockquote>
<br>
Well said.=C2=A0 Thank you for telling of these experiences.=C2=A0 Now plea=
se, let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.<br>
<br>
I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *the=
ir own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down=E2=
=80=94then later, type it back in:<br>
<br>
=E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3=
=82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=
=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86<br>
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3=
=81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80=
=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=
=E3=81=A4<br>
<br>
(Approximate translation:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin h=
ad been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)<br>
<br>
No, wait:=C2=A0 That is only a 12-word mnemonic.=C2=A0 We are probably talk=
ing about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2=
=80=99s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:<br>
<br>
=E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=
=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=
=E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=
=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F<br>
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=
=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=
=93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=
=E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=
=81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F<br>
=E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3=
=80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=
=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=
=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91<br>
<br>
Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?=C2=
=A0 No?=C2=A0 Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on=
 the inverse case.<br>
<br>
----<br>
<br>
If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japan=
ese people know English and other European languages, too.=C2=A0 Then think=
 of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and f=
riends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed=
 to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.<br=
>
<br>
In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at =
all.=C2=A0 A =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.=C2=A0 Gibber=
ish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing p=
seudorandom hex strings.=C2=A0 The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wr=
ote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not dealing=
 with a *mnemonic*:=C2=A0 He was using the world=E2=80=99s most inefficient=
 means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.<br>
<br>
----<br>
<br>
I began this thread with a quite simple request:=C2=A0 Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=
=A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate string for identifying the Ja=
panese language to Japanese users?=C2=A0 And what of the other strings I po=
sted for other languages?<br>
<br>
I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest g=
uard against vendor lock-in and stale software:=C2=A0 Independent implement=
ations.=C2=A0 =E2=80=94=C2=A0 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not s=
peak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.=C2=A0=
 *All.*<br>
<br>
Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody=
 has squarely addressed the substance of my question.<br>
<br>
Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of =
multi-language support.=C2=A0 I opened with a question about other language=
s, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish o=
nly!=E2=80=9D<br>
<br>
Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever imple=
menting any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to Eng=
lish.=C2=A0 I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard calle=
d =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, and four =
more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).<br>
<br>
I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use=
 with that standard.<br>
<br>
(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.=C2=
=A0 I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.=C2=
=A0 I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fasc=
inating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...=C2=A0 It should go=
 without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)<div class=3D"m_70=
15119369442535395m_-6034384190307218273HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_701511936944=
2535395m_-6034384190307218273h5"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00<wbr>591B2F307E0C=
<br>
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7<wbr>f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:<=
br>
3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaY<wbr>kCnG)=C2=A0 (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE=
)<br>
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth=
ing to hide.=E2=80=99<br>
No!=C2=A0 Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=94 nullius<br>
</div></div><br></div></div><span>______________________________<wbr>______=
___________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
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rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#8=
88888"><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"m_70151193=
69442535395gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia<br>@ematiu<br>Roads? Where we&#39;re going, w=
e don&#39;t need roads!</div></div>
</font></span></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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