Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32F56F0C for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 14:55:02 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wm0-f50.google.com (mail-wm0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1C793F4 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 14:55:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wm0-f50.google.com with SMTP id f206so14711098wmf.5 for ; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 06:55:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=36BLtTUDFilKQfJsXQISbMfdpYj6peO3YUmAvc8yyYg=; b=CmuuU3kMzxqakpuR8ZgQdTsc7uR0UqaVlS3q64ZXOr/TW7mFBpZKKzpqakLUdk+gV8 kVDFW7V5UrXaB2+ymOgdTSXKri7NzWQ7HKkVmgrfw7LKQe1MY4H8NuSYrt33akwWakW6 cz+LfkSYOmiWy9DljkB3wnfQUJIEF/xT4u1mZBwaytVSVYfPxtrFHm23Q2SBhuF2yyig bFKWbKFPANNEEqd+6AiKaJ1ADl3KNf4AiEN/l+CyQSqu/d6YZaDEoVK5q+GzIJrO9CIu lPgdWHR2FHnSLtvdTcJ6LoAGptQepwWDyVcyIn6NCFnGU6fO9bV7dsKKA2fat8s4/xfU z3bw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=36BLtTUDFilKQfJsXQISbMfdpYj6peO3YUmAvc8yyYg=; b=iTtMl0Blw75aJh7P1VkL5Lj+KSss+9eRpFDDSnXFyliMKzqLP2ppUiO8SijvuEXva2 KM+GEEFxg1IAoWr/dac3UdH0zyRsWz4OUMuJZfYt4Aa9BxEFjyzpmZr7ambr3H953qmL wl2lHDHiAwC0qwKuLjQw8AUbG1A8FxczlmA2I7mNMhdnDwtlmbbmZH0il3sw+Q+X5Cpo Wqc++NMinGD09BN8Qqo0pJc/1yAdeC899p8AGDkSpPfYOQpPXlnIA9M6+5eXvtksyc8/ QGSJOLGsYWSYUuMnK4zxJg4ocPZ11YOGH3+TBjxdHJH5jmDDqZtjbs161LyFI56w210V xwYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mK7EHnemxcQD9F+h6jnPjLm3jXf5vIjyy5kPmFpXVyAuDtgN/fx RZ5xerjjkeo+hXhcgoG/iNQ3BYl2KPfHKxshx/DU5Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBospkvoOc9nRAX8nlkNOFmgHS5b8Z9KskaNz6nHUNNoYqAg0omHm+VIxvAyD0h/X9eT+ZwKW7Il7KYNh+biUliw= X-Received: by 10.80.173.238 with SMTP id b43mr17525296edd.143.1515423299521; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 06:54:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.204.7 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 06:54:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone> From: Greg Sanders Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 09:54:38 -0500 Message-ID: To: Matias Alejo Garcia Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0c387073d364056244fb86" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT,FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 14:55:02 -0000 --94eb2c0c387073d364056244fb86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it? On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39? >> > > > Copay (and all its clones) use it. > > > > > >> >> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and >> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a >> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the making >> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all >> documentation is written in English. >> >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> >>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98= =E3=82=87=E3=81=AA wrote: >>> >>>> This is very sad. >>>> >>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words= . >>>> >>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (becaus= e >>>> he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" for >>>> "amateur"... >>>> >>>> [...] >>>> >>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain >>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down= . >>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for >>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion. >>>> >>>> [...] >>>> >>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to >>>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency. >>>> >>> >>> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please, >>> let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot. >>> >>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust >>> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this >>> down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in: >>> >>> =E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D =E3=82=8A=E3=82= =86=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82= =93 =E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86 >>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84 =E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84 =E3=81=8A=E3=81= =86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE =E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D =E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82= =83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=E3=81=A4 >>> >>> (Approximate translation: =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin ha= d been >>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D) >>> >>> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking >>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2= =80=99s >>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*: >>> >>> =E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=81= =AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=8B =E3=81=8B=E3=81= =84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86 =E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=E3=82=8B =E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81= =97 =E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F >>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F =E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=81= =97 =E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F =E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA =E3=81= =AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=81=9D =E3=82=8D=E3=82= =93=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81= =8F >>> =E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80 =E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3=81= =8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2 =E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=8F =E3=81=91=E3=81= =95=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F =E3=81=93=E3=82= =93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91 >>> >>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands? >>> No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on the >>> inverse case. >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many >>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then t= hink >>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family an= d >>> friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks n= eeded to >>> wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D. >>> >>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D= at all. A >>> =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a wholl= y alien writing >>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. = The >>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D fo= r =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not >>> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the world=E2=80=99s most ineff= icient means >>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly. >>> >>> ---- >>> >>> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97=A5= =E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an >>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese >>> users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages? >>> >>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the >>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent >>> implementations. =E2=80=94 I asked, because obviously, I myself do no= t speak all >>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.* >>> >>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, >>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question. >>> >>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism >>> of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other langua= ges, >>> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish = only!=E2=80=9D >>> >>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever >>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restrict= ed >>> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard >>> called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, = and four more >>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621). >>> >>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for >>> use with that standard. >>> >>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing. >>> I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. I >>> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually >>> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It should= go >>> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!) >>> >>> >>> -- >>> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C >>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested: >>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE) >>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have = nothing to hide.=E2=80=99 >>> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=94 nullius >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> >> > > > -- > Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia > @ematiu > Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads! > --94eb2c0c387073d364056244fb86 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actuall= y use it?

On= Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com>= wrote:


On Mo= n, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev = <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
H= as anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39?
<= /blockquote>


Copay (and all its cl= ones) use it.=C2=A0



=C2=A0

If a feature of the standard has no= t been(widely?) used in years, and isn't supported in any major wallet(= ?), it seems indicative it was a mistake to add it in the first place, sinc= e it's a footgun in the making for some poor sap who can't even rea= d English letters when almost all documentation is written in English.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius v= ia bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation= .org> wrote:
On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 += 0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3=82=87=E3=81=AA <kinoshitajona@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
This is very sad.

The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.

I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he = kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" fo= r "amateur"...

 [...]

If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain proces= ses the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.=C2=A0 Not= many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, = taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.

 [...]

Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to= plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.

Well said.=C2=A0 Thank you for telling of these experiences.=C2=A0 Now plea= se, let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.

I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *the= ir own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down=E2= =80=94then later, type it back in:

=E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3= =82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81= =A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3= =81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80= =80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82= =E3=81=A4

(Approximate translation:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin h= ad been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)

No, wait:=C2=A0 That is only a 12-word mnemonic.=C2=A0 We are probably talk= ing about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2= =80=99s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:

=E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= =80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82= =8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE= =E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3= =81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3= =81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81= =93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93= =E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3= =81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F
=E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= =80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81= =8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D= =E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91

Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?=C2= =A0 No?=C2=A0 Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on= the inverse case.

----

If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japan= ese people know English and other European languages, too.=C2=A0 Then think= of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and f= riends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed= to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.
In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at = all.=C2=A0 A =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.=C2=A0 Gibber= ish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing p= seudorandom hex strings.=C2=A0 The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wr= ote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not dealing= with a *mnemonic*:=C2=A0 He was using the world=E2=80=99s most inefficient= means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.

----

I began this thread with a quite simple request:=C2=A0 Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97= =A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate string for identifying the Ja= panese language to Japanese users?=C2=A0 And what of the other strings I po= sted for other languages?

I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest g= uard against vendor lock-in and stale software:=C2=A0 Independent implement= ations.=C2=A0 =E2=80=94=C2=A0 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not s= peak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.=C2=A0= *All.*

Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody= has squarely addressed the substance of my question.

Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of = multi-language support.=C2=A0 I opened with a question about other language= s, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish o= nly!=E2=80=9D

Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever imple= menting any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to Eng= lish.=C2=A0 I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard calle= d =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, and four = more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).

I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use= with that standard.

(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.=C2= =A0 I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.=C2= =A0 I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fasc= inating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...=C2=A0 It should go= without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)


--
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C=
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:<= br> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)=C2=A0 (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE= )
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth= ing to hide.=E2=80=99
No!=C2=A0 Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=94 nullius

____________________________________= ___________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev



_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev




--
Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia
@ematiu
Roads? Where we're going, w= e don't need roads!

--94eb2c0c387073d364056244fb86--