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Subject: [bitcoin-dev] BIP-119 CTV Meeting #2 Agenda for Tuesday January
	25th at 12:00 PT
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--000000000000425d0c05d64baed2
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Bitcoin Developers,

The 2nd instance of the recurring meeting is scheduled for Tuesday January
25th at 12:00 PT in channel ##ctv-bip-review in libera.chat IRC server.

The meeting should take approximately 2 hours.

The topics proposed to be discussed are agendized below. Please review the
agenda in advance of the meeting to make the best use of everyone's time.

If you have any feedback or proposed content changes to the agenda please
let me know.

See you Tuesday,

Jeremy

- Update on Bounty Program & Feedback (10 Min)
- Feedback Recap (20 Min)
  - In this section we'll review any recent feedback or review of CTV.
    To expedite the meeting, a summary is provided below of the main
feedback received since the last meeting and responses to them so that the
time allotted may be devoted to follow up questions.
  - Luke Dashjr's feedback
    - thread:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019776.html
    - summary:
        Dashjr notes that while CTV is not done, it may be nearly done.
        Dashjr requests that some applications be made BIP-quality before
proceeding, amongst other smaller feedbacks.
        Dashjr also expresses his concerns about activation logic.
        Respondents debated the activation logic, and there was a general
sentiment to keep the discussion of CTV and activation logic somewhat
separate, as Activation is a general concern pertaining to all upgrades and
not CTV in particular.
        Rubin responded asking if BIP-quality is required or if examples
like those in rubin.io/advent21 suffice.
  - James O'Beirne's feedback
    - Github Link:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21702#pullrequestreview-859718084
    - summary:
        O'Beirne tests the reindexing performance with the CTV patches and
finds a minor performance regression due to the cache precomputations.
        Rubin responds with patches for an improved caching strategy that
precomputes the CTV hashes only when they are used, but it is a little more
complex to review.
        Rubin also points out that the tested range is not representative
of "current" blocks which have a higher proportion of segwit.
  - Peter Todd's Feedback
    - thread:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019738.html
    - response:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019739.html
    - summary:
        Todd reviewed the BIP and an (outdated) implementation and was
disappointed to find that the testing was insufficient, the analysis of
validation resources was insufficient, and the quality of proof of concept
applications was insufficient.
        Rubin responded by pointing Todd to the most up to date
implementation which has more tests, updated the link in the BIP to the PR,
updated the BIP to describe resource usage, and asked what the bar is
expected to be for applications.
        Rubin further responded with an analysis of current congested
mempool behavior here:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019756.html
.
        Todd is yet to respond.
- What is Sapio / How to think about Programming with CTV (15 Min)
  - Resources to review
    - https://learn.sapio-lang.org/ch02-00-bip-119.html
    - https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/06/advent-9/
    - https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/15/advent-18/
  - Composability
  - What's all this "Non-Interactivity" Business?
- Vaults (20 Min)
  - Resources:
    https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/07/advent-10/
    https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/08/advent-11/
    https://github.com/kanzure/python-vaults
- Congestion Control (20 Mins)
  - Resources:
    https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/09/advent-12/

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019756.html
    https://utxos.org/analysis/batching_sim/
    https://utxos.org/analysis/bip_simulation/
- Payment Pools (20 Mins)
  - Resources:
    https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/10/advent-13/
    https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/15/advent-18/

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-September/019419.html

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2020-June/017964.html
- General Q&A (15 Mins)


--
@JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>
<https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>

--000000000000425d0c05d64baed2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">Bitcoin Developers,</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"=
>The 2nd instance=C2=A0of the recurring meeting is scheduled for Tuesday Ja=
nuary 25th at 12:00 PT in channel ##ctv-bip-review in libera.chat IRC serve=
r.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:=
#000000">The meeting should=C2=A0take approximately 2 hours.</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small;color:#000000"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default">The topics proposed to be discussed are agendized belo=
w. Please review the agenda in advance of the meeting to make the best use =
of everyone&#39;s time.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default">If you have any feedback or proposed content changes =
to the agenda please let me know.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default">See you Tuesday,</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">Jeremy</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault"><div class=3D"gmail_default"><div class=3D"gmail_default"><div class=
=3D"gmail_default">- Update on Bounty Program &amp; Feedback (10 Min)</div>=
</div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">- Feedback Recap (20 M=
in)<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 - In this sectio=
n we&#39;ll review any recent feedback or review of CTV.</div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To expedite the meeting, a summary is pro=
vided below of the main feedback received since the last meeting and respon=
ses to them so that the time allotted may be devoted to follow up questions=
.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 - Luke Dashjr&#39;s feedback=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - thread:=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/01=
9776.html">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-Jan=
uary/019776.html</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family=
:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - =
summary:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helve=
tica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
Dashjr notes that while CTV is not done, it may be nearly done.</div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font=
-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Dashjr requests that=
 some applications be made BIP-quality before proceeding, amongst other sma=
ller feedbacks.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:aria=
l,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 Dashjr also expresses his concerns about activation logic.=C2=A0</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Respondents =
debated the activation logic, and there was a general sentiment to keep the=
 discussion of CTV and activation logic somewhat separate, as Activation is=
 a general concern pertaining to all upgrades and not CTV in particular.</d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rubin respo=
nded asking if BIP-quality is required or if examples like those in <a href=
=3D"http://rubin.io/advent21">rubin.io/advent21</a> suffice.</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 - James O&#39;Beirne&#39;s feedback</div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Github Link:=C2=A0<a href=3D"=
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21702#pullrequestreview-859718084">=
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21702#pullrequestreview-859718084</=
a></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,s=
ans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - summary:</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 O&#39;Beirne tests=
 the reindexing performance with the CTV patches and finds a minor performa=
nce regression due to the cache precomputations.</div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;col=
or:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rubin responds with patches for an =
improved caching strategy that precomputes the CTV hashes only when they ar=
e used, but it=C2=A0is a=C2=A0little more complex to review.</div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rubin also points out t=
hat the tested range is not representative of &quot;current&quot; blocks wh=
ich have a higher proportion of segwit.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#00000=
0">=C2=A0 - Peter Todd&#39;s Feedback</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - thread: <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/piper=
mail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019738.html">https://lists.linuxfoundation.or=
g/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019738.html</a></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small=
;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - response:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.lin=
uxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019739.html">https://li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019739.html</a><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - summary:</div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-=
size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Todd reviewed the BIP=
 and an (outdated) implementation and was disappointed=C2=A0to find that th=
e testing was insufficient, the analysis of validation resources was insuff=
icient, and the quality of proof of concept applications was insufficient.<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rubin res=
ponded by pointing Todd to the most up to date implementation which has mor=
e tests, updated the link in the BIP to the PR, updated the BIP to describe=
 resource usage, and asked what the bar is expected to be for applications.=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Rubin fu=
rther responded with=C2=A0an analysis of current congested mempool behavior=
 here:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-=
dev/2022-January/019756.html">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/b=
itcoin-dev/2022-January/019756.html</a>.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#0000=
00">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Todd is yet to respond.</div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:sm=
all;color:#000000">- What is Sapio / How to think about Programming with CT=
V (15 Min)<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial=
,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 - Resources to =
review</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helveti=
ca,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://learn.sapio-lang.org/ch02-00-bip-119.html">https://learn.sapio-=
lang.org/ch02-00-bip-119.html</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/06/advent-=
9/">https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/06/advent-9/</a></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:smal=
l;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2=
021/12/15/advent-18/">https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/15/advent-18/</a></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 - Composability</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 - What&#39;s all this &quot;Non-Interactivity=
&quot; Business?</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">- Vaults (20 Min)<br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 - Resources:</div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://rubin.io/bitcoin/20=
21/12/07/advent-10/">https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/07/advent-10/</a></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://ru=
bin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/08/advent-11/">https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/08/a=
dvent-11/</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,=
helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<a h=
ref=3D"https://github.com/kanzure/python-vaults">https://github.com/kanzure=
/python-vaults</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:a=
rial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default">- Congestion Control (20 Mins)<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult"><div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 - Resources:</div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12=
/09/advent-12/">https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/09/advent-12/</a></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfound=
ation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019756.html">https://lists.lin=
uxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019756.html</a></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://utxos.org/=
analysis/batching_sim/">https://utxos.org/analysis/batching_sim/</a></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://utxos.org=
/analysis/bip_simulation/">https://utxos.org/analysis/bip_simulation/</a></=
div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,hel=
vetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000">- Payment Pools (20 Mins)<=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans=
-serif;font-size:small;color:#000000"><div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 -=
 Resources:=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0<a h=
ref=3D"https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/10/advent-13/">https://rubin.io/bit=
coin/2021/12/10/advent-13/</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_default">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/15/advent-18/">https:/=
/rubin.io/bitcoin/2021/12/15/advent-18/</a></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
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