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From: Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
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Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:57:37 +0100
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To: Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de>
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Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
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you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about
the form of a price.

A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a
price in some currency.=20

A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price
but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency.

Tamas Blummer
Bits of Proof

On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de> =
wrote:

> How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?
>=20
> At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
> people would expect. Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5BTC 3558 or =
BTC
> 0.003578.
>=20
> Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.
>=20
>=20
> On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
>> You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
>> why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
>> gave them are bad.
>>=20
>> I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
>> currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
>> do.
>>=20
>> 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
>> would be.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof
>>=20
>> On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
>>> because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
>>> questions if exchange rates happen to differ by >10%.
>>>=20
>>> I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
>>> local currency that matters to the users.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
>>>> Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
>>>> =C2=B5BTC.
>>>>=20
>>>> I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
>>>> other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
>>>> mBTC.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
>>>>> The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
>>>>> It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
>>>>> now.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
>>>>> <g.rowe@froot.co.uk <mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
>>>>> presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
>>>>> configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
>>>>> combination: icon, m+icon,  =CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC,  =CE=BCBTC, =
XBT,
>>>>> mXBT,  =CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
>>>>> symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
>>>>> customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
>>>>> symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
>>>>> icon+m etc).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
>>>>> the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
>>>>> seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Let us know what you'd like.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font
>>>>> Awesome icon:
>>>>> http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
>>>>> guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com=20
>>>>> <mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC
>>>>> several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like
>>>>> the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will
>>>>> happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to
>>>>> yet another decimal place transition.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell <w@grabhive.com=20
>>>>> <mailto:w@grabhive.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do
>>>>>> this,
>>>>> let's do it right after the fee system is improved.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -wendell
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> grabhive.com <http://grabhive.com> |
>>>>>> twitter.com/hivewallet
>>>>> <http://twitter.com/hivewallet> | gpg: 6C0C9411
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer
>>>>>>> systems
>>>>> handle numbers to
>>>>>>> the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen).
>>>>>>> The
>>>>> opposite is
>>>>>>> untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal
>>>>>>> places).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source
>>>>> evangelist BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>>>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph
>>>>> databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed
>>>>> leaders in the field, this first edition is now available.
>>>>> Download your free book today!=20
>>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________=20
>>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20
>>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20
>>>>> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>=20
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
>>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>>>>> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in
>>>>> the field, this first edition is now available. Download your
>>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________=20
>>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20
>>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20
>>>>> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>=20
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
>>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
>>>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
>>>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your
>>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________=20
>>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20
>>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
>>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
>>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free
>>>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech=20
>>>> _______________________________________________=20
>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20
>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free
>>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech=20
>>> _______________________________________________=20
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>=20
>>=20
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
>> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book
>> today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development
>> mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and =
their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">you =
miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about<div>the =
form of a price.</div><div><br></div><div>A number with no decimals or =
with two decimals is percieved as a</div><div>price in some =
currency.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>A number with more than two =
decimals is just not percieved as a price</div><div>but as a geeky =
something that you rather convert to local currency.</div><div><div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; =
">Tamas Blummer</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"></div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
display: inline !important; float: none; ">Bits of =
Proof</span></div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><span style=3D"color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important; float: none; =
"><br></span></div><div><div>On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de">andreas@schildbach.de</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local =
currency?<br><br>At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very =
close to what<br>people would expect. Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5B=
TC 3558 or BTC<br>0.003578.<br><br>Anyway, I was just sharing real-world =
experience: nobody is confused.<br><br><br>On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas =
Blummer wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">You give them a hard to =
interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder<br>why they rather look at =
local currency. Because the choices you<br>gave them are bad.<br><br>I =
think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as =
a<br>currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like =
currencies<br>do.<br><br>3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as =
accepted as 3558 bits<br>would be.<br><br><br>Tamas Blummer Bits of =
Proof<br><br>On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de">andreas@schildbach.de</a>&gt;<br>wro=
te:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users =
complained about confusion<br>because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I =
get many mails and<br>questions if exchange rates happen to differ by =
&gt;10%.<br><br>I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the =
amount in<br>local currency that matters to the users.<br><br><br>On =
03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking =
for<br>=C2=B5BTC.<br><br>I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I =
just watched<br>other wallets and at some point decided its time to =
switch to<br>mBTC.<br><br><br>On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn =
wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">The standard has become mBTC and =
that's what was adopted.<br>It's too late to try and sway this on a =
mailing list thread<br>now.<br><br><br>On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, =
Gary Rowe<br>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk">g.rowe@froot.co.uk</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk">mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br><br>The MultiBit HD view is that this is a =
locale-sensitive<br>presentation issue. As a result we offer a =
simple<br>configuration panel giving pretty much every =
possible<br>combination: icon, m+icon, &nbsp;=CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC, =
&nbsp;=CE=BCBTC, XBT,<br>mXBT, &nbsp;=CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings =
for leading/trailing<br>symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows =
anyone to<br>customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered =
default.<br><br><br>We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of =
SI unit<br>symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL =
giving<br>icon+m etc).<br><br>Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use =
m+icon taken from<br>the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier =
posts it<br>seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible.<br><br>Let us know =
what you'd like.<br><br>Links: m+icon screenshot: <a =
href=3D"http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG">http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG</a> =
Font<br>Awesome icon:<br><a =
href=3D"http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/">http://fortaw=
esome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/</a> NIST SI<br>guidelines: <a =
href=3D"http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html">http://physics.nist=
.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html</a><br><br><br>On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff =
Garzik &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com">jgarzik@bitpay.com</a> =
<br>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com">mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br><br>Resurrecting this topic. &nbsp;Bitcoin Wallet moved to =
mBTC<br>several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded =
like<br>the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which =
will<br>happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks =
to<br>yet another decimal place transition.<br><br><br><br>On Sun, Nov =
17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:w@grabhive.com">w@grabhive.com</a> <br>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:w@grabhive.com">mailto:w@grabhive.com</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">We're with uBTC too. Been waiting =
for the signal to do<br>this,<br></blockquote>let's do it right after =
the fee system is improved.<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br>-wendell<br><br><a =
href=3D"http://grabhive.com">grabhive.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://grabhive.com">http://grabhive.com</a>&gt; |<br><a =
href=3D"http://twitter.com/hivewallet">twitter.com/hivewallet</a><br></blo=
ckquote>&lt;<a =
href=3D"http://twitter.com/hivewallet">http://twitter.com/hivewallet</a>&g=
t; | gpg: 6C0C9411<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br>On Nov 15, 2013, at =
6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Go straight =
to uBTC. Humans and existing =
computer<br>systems<br></blockquote></blockquote>handle numbers =
to<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">the left of =
the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, =
Yen).<br>The<br></blockquote></blockquote>opposite is<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">untrue (QuickBooks really does =
not like 3+ =
decimal<br>places).<br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br><br><br>-- Jeff =
Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source<br>evangelist BitPay, Inc. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://bitpay.com/">https://bitpay.com/</a><br><br>--------------=
----------------------------------------------------------------<br><br><b=
r></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Learn Graph =
Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">"Graph Databases" is the =
definitive new guide to graph<br>databases and their applications. =
Written by three acclaimed<br>leaders in the field, this first edition =
is now available.<br>Download your free book today! <br><a =
href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe=
ch</a> <br>_______________________________________________ =
<br>Bitcoin-development mailing list <br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-developm=
ent@lists.sourceforge.net</a> <br>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">mailto:Bitcoin-d=
evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net</a>&gt; <br><a =
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FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph<br>Databases" is the definitive new guide to =
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----<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Learn Graph Databases - Download =
FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph<br>Databases" is the definitive new guide to =
graph databases and<br>their applications. Written by three acclaimed =
leaders in the<br>field, this first edition is now available. Download =
your<br>free book today! <a =
href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe=
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<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book =
"Graph<br>Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases =
and<br>their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in =
the<br>field, this first edition is now available. Download your =
free<br>book today! <a =
href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe=
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type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>-----------------=
-------------------------------------------------------------<br><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Learn Graph Databases - =
Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph<br>Databases" is the definitive new =
guide to graph databases and<br>their applications. Written by three =
acclaimed leaders in the<br>field, this first edition is now available. =
Download your free<br>book today! <a =
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blockquote><br><br><br>---------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------<br><br><br></blockquote>Learn Graph =
Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph =
databases<br>and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders =
in the<br>field, this first edition is now available. Download your free =
book<br>today! <a =
href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe=
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r></blockquote><br><br><br>-----------------------------------------------=
-------------------------------<br>Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE =
O'Reilly Book<br>"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph =
databases and their<br>applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders =
in the field,<br>this first edition is now available. Download your free =
book today!<br><a =
href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe=
ch</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bitcoin-devel=
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