Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1WOTYQ-0007UL-UO for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 14:57:47 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de ([80.237.132.66]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1WOTYO-000301-Bf for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 14:57:46 +0000 Received: from [37.143.74.116] (helo=[192.168.2.2]); authenticated by wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) id 1WOTYH-0001T8-PZ; Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:57:37 +0100 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_73B1EC87-BF1A-4FCC-BECF-E4ADDBE9FC11"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Tamas Blummer In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 15:57:37 +0100 Message-Id: References: <52852C2D.9020103@gmail.com> <52853D8A.6010501@monetize.io> <362072F0-1EA8-4474-AE26-4691C852A22C@bitsofproof.com> To: Andreas Schildbach X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; tamas@bitsofproof.com; 1394809064; b9a9e58e; X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message X-Headers-End: 1WOTYO-000301-Bf Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 14:57:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_73B1EC87-BF1A-4FCC-BECF-E4ADDBE9FC11 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C38553BA-5786-40F2-995B-833CC75ADF37" --Apple-Mail=_C38553BA-5786-40F2-995B-833CC75ADF37 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about the form of a price. A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a price in some currency.=20 A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency. Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach = wrote: > How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency? >=20 > At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what > people would expect. Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5BTC 3558 or = BTC > 0.003578. >=20 > Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused. >=20 >=20 > On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote: >> You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder >> why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you >> gave them are bad. >>=20 >> I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a >> currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies >> do. >>=20 >> 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits >> would be. >>=20 >>=20 >> Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof >>=20 >> On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach >> wrote: >>=20 >>> btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion >>> because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and >>> questions if exchange rates happen to differ by >10%. >>>=20 >>> I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in >>> local currency that matters to the users. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote: >>>> Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for >>>> =C2=B5BTC. >>>>=20 >>>> I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched >>>> other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to >>>> mBTC. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: >>>>> The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. >>>>> It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread >>>>> now. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive >>>>> presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple >>>>> configuration panel giving pretty much every possible >>>>> combination: icon, m+icon, =CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC, =CE=BCBTC, = XBT, >>>>> mXBT, =CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing >>>>> symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to >>>>> customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit >>>>> symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving >>>>> icon+m etc). >>>>>=20 >>>>> Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from >>>>> the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it >>>>> seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Let us know what you'd like. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font >>>>> Awesome icon: >>>>> http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI >>>>> guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik >>>> > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC >>>>> several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like >>>>> the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will >>>>> happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to >>>>> yet another decimal place transition. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell >>>> > wrote: >>>>>> We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do >>>>>> this, >>>>> let's do it right after the fee system is improved. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -wendell >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> grabhive.com | >>>>>> twitter.com/hivewallet >>>>> | gpg: 6C0C9411 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer >>>>>>> systems >>>>> handle numbers to >>>>>>> the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). >>>>>>> The >>>>> opposite is >>>>>>> untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal >>>>>>> places). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source >>>>> evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ >>>>>=20 >>>>> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >>>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph >>>>> databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed >>>>> leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. >>>>> Download your free book today!=20 >>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________=20 >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20 >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph >>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >>>>> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in >>>>> the field, this first edition is now available. Download your >>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________=20 >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20 >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph >>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >>>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the >>>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your >>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________=20 >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20 >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph >>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the >>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free >>>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech=20 >>>> _______________________________________________=20 >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20 >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph >>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and >>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the >>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free >>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech=20 >>> _______________________________________________=20 >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20 >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>=20 >>=20 > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases >> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the >> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book >> today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development >> mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and = their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development --Apple-Mail=_C38553BA-5786-40F2-995B-833CC75ADF37 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 you = miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about
the = form of a price.

A number with no decimals or = with two decimals is percieved as a
price in some = currency. 

A number with more than two = decimals is just not percieved as a price
but as a geeky = something that you rather convert to local currency.

Bits of = Proof
andreas@schildbach.de>= wrote:

How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local = currency?

At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very = close to what
people would expect. Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5B= TC 3558 or BTC
0.003578.

Anyway, I was just sharing real-world = experience: nobody is confused.


On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas = Blummer wrote:
You give them a hard to = interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
why they rather look at = local currency. Because the choices you
gave them are bad.

I = think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as = a
currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like = currencies
do.

3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as = accepted as 3558 bits
would be.


Tamas Blummer Bits of = Proof

On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de>
wro= te:

btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users = complained about confusion
because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I = get many mails and
questions if exchange rates happen to differ by = >10%.

I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the = amount in
local currency that matters to the users.


On = 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking = for
=C2=B5BTC.

I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I = just watched
other wallets and at some point decided its time to = switch to
mBTC.


On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn = wrote:
The standard has become mBTC and = that's what was adopted.
It's too late to try and sway this on a = mailing list thread
now.


On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, = Gary Rowe
<g.rowe@froot.co.uk <mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk>> = wrote:

The MultiBit HD view is that this is a = locale-sensitive
presentation issue. As a result we offer a = simple
configuration panel giving pretty much every = possible
combination: icon, m+icon,  =CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC, =  =CE=BCBTC, XBT,
mXBT,  =CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings = for leading/trailing
symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows = anyone to
customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered = default.


We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of = SI unit
symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL = giving
icon+m etc).

Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use = m+icon taken from
the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier = posts it
seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible.

Let us know = what you'd like.

Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG = Font
Awesome icon:
http://fortaw= esome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
guidelines: http://physics.nist= .gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html


On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff = Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com =
<mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com>> = wrote:

Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to = mBTC
several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded = like
the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which = will
happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks = to
yet another decimal place transition.



On Sun, Nov = 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell <w@grabhive.com
<mailto:w@grabhive.com>> = wrote:
We're with uBTC too. Been waiting = for the signal to do
this,
let's do it right after = the fee system is improved.

-wendell

grabhive.com <http://grabhive.com> |
twitter.com/hivewallet
<http://twitter.com/hivewallet&g= t; | gpg: 6C0C9411

On Nov 15, 2013, at = 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:

Go straight = to uBTC. Humans and existing = computer
systems
handle numbers = to
the left of = the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, = Yen).
The
opposite is
untrue (QuickBooks really does = not like 3+ = decimal
places).




-- Jeff = Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source
evangelist BitPay, Inc. =      https://bitpay.com/

--------------= ----------------------------------------------------------------

Learn Graph = Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the = definitive new guide to graph
databases and their applications. = Written by three acclaimed
leaders in the field, this first edition = is now available.
Download your free book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe= ch
_______________________________________________ =
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:Bitcoin-d= evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net>
= https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development




----= --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
Learn Graph Databases - Download = FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
Databases" is the definitive new guide to = graph databases
and their applications. Written by three acclaimed = leaders in
the field, this first edition is now available. Download = your
free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe= ch
_______________________________________________ =
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
<mailto:Bitcoin-d= evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net>
= https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development





= --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
Learn Graph Databases - Download = FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
Databases" is the definitive new guide to = graph databases and
their applications. Written by three acclaimed = leaders in the
field, this first edition is now available. Download = your
free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe= ch



_______________________________________________ =
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
= https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development





----= --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book = "Graph
Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases = and
their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in = the
field, this first edition is now available. Download your = free
book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe= ch
_______________________________________________ =
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
= https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development





-----------------= -------------------------------------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - = Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
Databases" is the definitive new = guide to graph databases and
their applications. Written by three = acclaimed leaders in the
field, this first edition is now available. = Download your free
book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe= ch
_______________________________________________ =
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
= https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



---------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------


Learn Graph = Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph = databases
and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders = in the
field, this first edition is now available. Download your free = book
today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe= ch



_______________________________________________ = Bitcoin-development
mailing list Bitcoin-developm= ent@lists.sourceforge.net
= https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development



-----------------------------------------------= -------------------------------
Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE = O'Reilly Book
"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph = databases and their
applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders = in the field,
this first edition is now available. Download your free = book today!
http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe= ch
_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-devel= opment mailing = list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourcef= orge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

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