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From: Steve Lee <steven.j.lee@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 11:29:56 -0700
Message-ID: <CABu3BAc7SO6T+Tm34CzyU1ZS5O83a+vRjvgd=q94Q+9F9bntSw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@protonmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core maintainers and communication on
	merge decisions
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I see it was merged since my original post. I agree that is a very short
window of time. In particular, if a long-time Core contributor wasn't able
to attend the in-person meeting or last week's IRC meeting, they'd have had
to really been on the ball.

On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 10:22=E2=80=AFAM Michael Folkson <
michaelfolkson@protonmail.com> wrote:

> > Blocking Vasil was discussed on a similar GitHub PR. Whether or not one
> agrees or disagrees, the same process is being used. Anyone can NACK and
> give a reason for Russ as well.
>
> With respect Steve the process for Vasil was keeping Vasil's PR open for
> up to 5 months with zero NACKs and two maintainers refusing to engage on
> why it wasn't being merged or what it needed for it to be merged. Followe=
d
> by a later justification for blocking it that they've refused to discuss
> whether it applies to Russ.
>
> The process for Russ was the maintainers deciding privately there was a
> need for a maintainer "who understood our interfaces and modularization
> efforts well" and his PR was merged within 2 days.
>
> If that's the same process to you I don't know what to say. We have
> different perspectives on what constitutes a decision process.
>
> (I'm sure this is clear but just to reiterate in case it isn't none of
> this is a criticism of Russ.)
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>
> --
> Michael Folkson
> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com
> GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F
>
> Learn about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 17:36, Steve Lee <steven.j.lee@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Blocking Vasil was discussed on a similar GitHub PR. Whether or not one
> agrees or disagrees, the same process is being used. Anyone can NACK and
> give a reason for Russ as well.
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 8:55=E2=80=AFAM Michael Folkson <
> michaelfolkson@protonmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Steve
>>
>> > Isn't this as simple as anyone (in particular Core project
>> contributors) can express their view in this PR?
>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27604
>>
>> Nope. The extent to which the rationale for blocking Vasil as a
>> maintainer applies or doesn't apply to ryanofsky (or future potential
>> maintainers) isn't discussed. From now on the precedent is proposed
>> maintainers can be blocked for unknown and/or potentially inconsistent
>> reasons by the existing maintainers.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Michael
>>
>> --
>> Michael Folkson
>> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com
>> GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F
>>
>> Learn about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin
>>
>> ------- Original Message -------
>> On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 03:44, Steve Lee via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't this as simple as anyone (in particular Core project contributors)
>> can express their view in this PR?
>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27604
>>
>> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 5:03=E2=80=AFAM Bryan Bishop via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, May 7, 2023 at 12:36=E2=80=AFPM David A. Harding via bitcoin-de=
v <
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-05-06 21:03, Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>>> > Essentially my concern is going forward current maintainers will
>>>> > decide which proposed new maintainers to add and which to block.
>>>>
>>>> This is how a large percentage of organizations are run. The current
>>>> members of a board or other governance group choose who will become a
>>>> new board member.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes but it's unrelated to what Bitcoin Core is-- a volunteer project of
>>> independent contributors merging different pull requests or patches. Th=
e
>>> github controls are merely because that is how github works. There is a=
lso
>>> a secondary issue of people tending to confuse Bitcoin Core with the
>>> bitcoin protocol in general:
>>> https://blog.lopp.net/who-controls-bitcoin-core/
>>>
>>> https://medium.com/@bergealex4/the-tao-of-bitcoin-development-ff093c615=
5cd
>>>
>>> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/a-primer-on-bitcoin-governance-or-w=
hy-developers-aren-t-in-charge-of-the-protocol-1473270427
>>>
>>> - Bryan
>>> https://twitter.com/kanzure
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I see it was merged since my original post. I agree that i=
s a very short window of time. In particular, if a long-time Core contribut=
or wasn&#39;t able to attend the in-person meeting or last week&#39;s IRC m=
eeting, they&#39;d have had to really been on the ball.</div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, May 10, 2023=
 at 10:22=E2=80=AFAM Michael Folkson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michaelfolkson@p=
rotonmail.com">michaelfolkson@protonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1=
px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-family:Arial=
,sans-serif;font-size:14px">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,=
sans-serif;display:inline">Blocking Vasil was discussed on a similar GitHub=
 PR. Whether or not one agrees or disagrees, the same process is being used=
. Anyone can NACK and give a reason for Russ as well.</span></div><div styl=
e=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-=
family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:system-u=
i,sans-serif;display:inline">With respect Steve the process for Vasil was k=
eeping Vasil&#39;s PR open for up to 5 months with zero NACKs and two maint=
ainers refusing to engage on why it wasn&#39;t being merged or what it need=
ed for it to be merged. Followed by a later justification for blocking it t=
hat they&#39;ve refused to discuss whether it applies to Russ.</span></div>=
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family=
:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline">The process for Russ was the maintain=
ers deciding privately there was a need for a maintainer &quot;who understo=
od our interfaces and modularization efforts well&quot; and his PR was merg=
ed within 2 days.</span></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inlin=
e"><br></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14=
px"><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline">If that=
&#39;s the same process to you I don&#39;t know what to say. We have differ=
ent perspectives on what constitutes a decision process.</span></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></span></div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:syste=
m-ui,sans-serif;display:inline">(I&#39;m sure this is clear but just to rei=
terate in case it isn&#39;t none of this is a criticism of Russ.)</span></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline">Thanks</span></div><div style=3D=
"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:sy=
stem-ui,sans-serif;display:inline">Michael</span></div><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
    <div>
        <div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospac=
e,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">--<br>Michael Folkson</span></s=
pan></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing=
:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo=
,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">Email: michaelfolkson =
at </span></span></span><a href=3D"http://protonmail.com/" style=3D"line-he=
ight:normal;text-decoration:underline;font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&=
quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">protonmail.com</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);fo=
nt-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Re=
gular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:14px"> </span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:no=
rmal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)=
;float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Conso=
las,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:14px">GPG: <span>A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F</span></=
span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word=
-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><=
span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quo=
t;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><span><br></sp=
an></span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14p=
x"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap=
;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inli=
ne"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mon=
o&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><span>Lea=
rn about Bitcoin: <span><a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin" =
rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.youtube.com/@port=
ofbitcoin</a></span></span></span></span></span></div>
    </div>
   =20
            <div>
       =20
            </div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div>
        ------- Original Message -------<br>
        On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 17:36, Steve Lee &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:steven.j.lee@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">steven.j.lee@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br><br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <div dir=3D"ltr">Blocking Vasil was discussed on a similar GitH=
ub PR. Whether or not one agrees or disagrees, the same process is being us=
ed. Anyone can NACK and give a reason for Russ as well.</div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 10, 2023=
 at 8:55=E2=80=AFAM Michael Folkson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michaelfolkson@pr=
otonmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank">michae=
lfolkson@protonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size=
:14px">Hi Steve</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
4px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">&=
gt; <span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline">Isn&#39=
;t this as simple as anyone (in particular Core project contributors) can e=
xpress their view in this PR?<span> </span></span><a style=3D"line-height:1=
.5;text-decoration:underline;font-family:system-ui,sans-serif" rel=3D"noref=
errer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27=
604" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27604</a></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><di=
v style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Nope. The extent to=
 which the rationale for blocking Vasil as a maintainer applies or doesn&#3=
9;t apply to ryanofsky (or future potential maintainers) isn&#39;t discusse=
d. From now on the precedent is proposed maintainers can be blocked for unk=
nown and/or potentially inconsistent reasons by the existing maintainers. <=
/div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Thanks</div><div =
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Michael</div><div sty=
le=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
    <div>
        <div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospac=
e,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">--<br>Michael Folkson</span></s=
pan></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing=
:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo=
,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">Email: michaelfolkson =
at </span></span></span><a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" style=3D"li=
ne-height:normal;text-decoration:underline;font-family:SFMono-Regular,Conso=
las,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;fo=
nt-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px" href=3D"http://proton=
mail.com/" target=3D"_blank">protonmail.com</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,=
42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:=
0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-co=
lor:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:=
SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospa=
ce"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"> </span></span></span></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);fo=
nt-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Re=
gular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:14px">GPG: <span>A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE=
0F</span></span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-si=
ze:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:4=
00;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pr=
e-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;displa=
y:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberati=
on Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><sp=
an><br></span></span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;fo=
nt-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-wei=
ght:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;d=
isplay:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Lib=
eration Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px=
"><span>Learn about Bitcoin: <span><a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" =
href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
ww.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin</a></span></span></span></span></span></div>
    </div>

            <div>

            </div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div>
        ------- Original Message -------<br>
        On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 03:44, Steve Lee via bitcoin-dev &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" rel=3D"noreferre=
r nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <div dir=3D"ltr">Isn&#39;t this as simple as anyone (in particu=
lar Core project contributors) can express their view in this PR? <a rel=3D=
"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/p=
ull/27604" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27604<=
/a></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att=
r">On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 5:03=E2=80=AFAM Bryan Bishop via bitcoin-dev &lt;=
<a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div>On Sun, May 7, 2023 at 12:36=E2=80=AFPM David A. Hardi=
ng via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"mail=
to:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 2023-05-06 21:03, Micha=
el Folkson via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
&gt; Essentially my concern is going forward current maintainers will<br>
&gt; decide which proposed new maintainers to add and which to block.<br>
<br>
This is how a large percentage of organizations are run.  The current <br>
members of a board or other governance group choose who will become a <br>
new board member.<br></blockquote><div><br>Yes but it&#39;s unrelated to wh=
at Bitcoin Core is-- a volunteer project of independent contributors mergin=
g different pull requests or patches. The github controls are merely becaus=
e that is how github works. There is also a secondary issue of people tendi=
ng to confuse Bitcoin Core with the bitcoin protocol in general:<br><a rel=
=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://blog.lopp.net/who-control=
s-bitcoin-core/" target=3D"_blank">https://blog.lopp.net/who-controls-bitco=
in-core/</a><br><a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://med=
ium.com/@bergealex4/the-tao-of-bitcoin-development-ff093c6155cd" target=3D"=
_blank">https://medium.com/@bergealex4/the-tao-of-bitcoin-development-ff093=
c6155cd</a><br><a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"https://bitc=
oinmagazine.com/culture/a-primer-on-bitcoin-governance-or-why-developers-ar=
en-t-in-charge-of-the-protocol-1473270427" target=3D"_blank">https://bitcoi=
nmagazine.com/culture/a-primer-on-bitcoin-governance-or-why-developers-aren=
-t-in-charge-of-the-protocol-1473270427</a><br><br></div></div><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">- Bryan<br><a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" hr=
ef=3D"https://twitter.com/kanzure" target=3D"_blank">https://twitter.com/ka=
nzure</a></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<=
/a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxf=
oundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

        </blockquote><br>
    </div></blockquote></div>

        </blockquote><br>
    </div></blockquote></div>

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