Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A2BC002A for ; Wed, 10 May 2023 18:30:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F1F42733 for ; Wed, 10 May 2023 18:30:11 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 24F1F42733 Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20221208 header.b=VYHkmB91 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Ha6qjuh9cXW for ; Wed, 10 May 2023 18:30:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 515844271B Received: from mail-pf1-x435.google.com (mail-pf1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::435]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 515844271B for ; Wed, 10 May 2023 18:30:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf1-x435.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-643995a47f7so7670483b3a.1 for ; Wed, 10 May 2023 11:30:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1683743408; x=1686335408; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WWFHidKB8+u5q1ErZYw+i6/RhcNxKvcxW6r+89A6IA4=; b=VYHkmB91obAg3BzW7F5bqRVEPA45pa8SFYjqcM1zHkh5jIfCeTHCJ7Yzi2/wzKZevb sioeQXUQV8epzOnVKiEdlJkyJHg9exM4o8qyPa0PR6RPPBXOX1Z6uBoNAChFioMGo2vd mxVSFC2X2a9HU2+fvKIguDULA+MdHGWvW32h0N1LpeLQCsnXQhgVBbxkoqGyeecpyano UjFWFSoB5ZH5HSM0fkqft+ki31KvYMx5FnoD6Ki+Bro6SeTOVul+bszmyj9JwXQoRuTz vq4FTl+3xP/8yK75FS6+8cTaPraQV0CG4xUYb11jGp27hEG983bhBy3/uRSnRVFOlngh +q9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1683743408; x=1686335408; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WWFHidKB8+u5q1ErZYw+i6/RhcNxKvcxW6r+89A6IA4=; b=k8QotlPxmmBA67nVIWDr6dK3h8ottEiGd14qfh4slhgVEllOfmCj6asvABbA0xHv0c ohcsRrFELbiQBr0DqrvZsQ0gJ1flsuPoL9sBTlG5l4oFHX9DNzoR10CvZNak6pXzfxHY Qrnguk9RC9lK4LY9Rp2AfmZDQUA8lnngDNpAy0erzL0Gt+gIchuMQ6sw0q3oKGgPTN4q Y58HmshLsFR1Vc6A1icK7c2bb3PM+KzTuiykJr+2sM4uY/rmZC/+te4X0SDyTpsq+YBA StggJy+iEtpTQ6K6zElUB32rr0PkQC3MjBzdc1MnvTMHslrhouL2xYJPk7HTWB4jq6wX zioA== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDyT3jG47LbsGIAHytPbtrAXlEl8gQjDHBOlLqIPPwUFKxk5p5R5 BASv9zp/6kKlA/uQnFOxOxuWe5qg8/fjQoJmWwI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ5eGThRbXml5055jeU45dyrW+qnO6i1M9LQaVO2Lr/nB1ug9ZFDDGtxAKpJtkq2sugUd+BFcw8oUykOVAA68xI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a20:7f8c:b0:f4:fd7:db9f with SMTP id d12-20020a056a207f8c00b000f40fd7db9fmr21086452pzj.17.1683743408470; Wed, 10 May 2023 11:30:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Steve Lee Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 11:29:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Michael Folkson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c1415205fb5b0fac" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 11 May 2023 11:54:39 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core maintainers and communication on merge decisions X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 May 2023 18:30:11 -0000 --000000000000c1415205fb5b0fac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see it was merged since my original post. I agree that is a very short window of time. In particular, if a long-time Core contributor wasn't able to attend the in-person meeting or last week's IRC meeting, they'd have had to really been on the ball. On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 10:22=E2=80=AFAM Michael Folkson < michaelfolkson@protonmail.com> wrote: > > Blocking Vasil was discussed on a similar GitHub PR. Whether or not one > agrees or disagrees, the same process is being used. Anyone can NACK and > give a reason for Russ as well. > > With respect Steve the process for Vasil was keeping Vasil's PR open for > up to 5 months with zero NACKs and two maintainers refusing to engage on > why it wasn't being merged or what it needed for it to be merged. Followe= d > by a later justification for blocking it that they've refused to discuss > whether it applies to Russ. > > The process for Russ was the maintainers deciding privately there was a > need for a maintainer "who understood our interfaces and modularization > efforts well" and his PR was merged within 2 days. > > If that's the same process to you I don't know what to say. We have > different perspectives on what constitutes a decision process. > > (I'm sure this is clear but just to reiterate in case it isn't none of > this is a criticism of Russ.) > > Thanks > Michael > > -- > Michael Folkson > Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com > GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F > > Learn about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 17:36, Steve Lee > wrote: > > Blocking Vasil was discussed on a similar GitHub PR. Whether or not one > agrees or disagrees, the same process is being used. Anyone can NACK and > give a reason for Russ as well. > > On Wed, May 10, 2023 at 8:55=E2=80=AFAM Michael Folkson < > michaelfolkson@protonmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Steve >> >> > Isn't this as simple as anyone (in particular Core project >> contributors) can express their view in this PR? >> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27604 >> >> Nope. The extent to which the rationale for blocking Vasil as a >> maintainer applies or doesn't apply to ryanofsky (or future potential >> maintainers) isn't discussed. From now on the precedent is proposed >> maintainers can be blocked for unknown and/or potentially inconsistent >> reasons by the existing maintainers. >> >> Thanks >> Michael >> >> -- >> Michael Folkson >> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com >> GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F >> >> Learn about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin >> >> ------- Original Message ------- >> On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 03:44, Steve Lee via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> >> Isn't this as simple as anyone (in particular Core project contributors) >> can express their view in this PR? >> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27604 >> >> On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 5:03=E2=80=AFAM Bryan Bishop via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, May 7, 2023 at 12:36=E2=80=AFPM David A. Harding via bitcoin-de= v < >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2023-05-06 21:03, Michael Folkson via bitcoin-dev wrote: >>>> > Essentially my concern is going forward current maintainers will >>>> > decide which proposed new maintainers to add and which to block. >>>> >>>> This is how a large percentage of organizations are run. The current >>>> members of a board or other governance group choose who will become a >>>> new board member. >>>> >>> >>> Yes but it's unrelated to what Bitcoin Core is-- a volunteer project of >>> independent contributors merging different pull requests or patches. Th= e >>> github controls are merely because that is how github works. There is a= lso >>> a secondary issue of people tending to confuse Bitcoin Core with the >>> bitcoin protocol in general: >>> https://blog.lopp.net/who-controls-bitcoin-core/ >>> >>> https://medium.com/@bergealex4/the-tao-of-bitcoin-development-ff093c615= 5cd >>> >>> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/a-primer-on-bitcoin-governance-or-w= hy-developers-aren-t-in-charge-of-the-protocol-1473270427 >>> >>> - Bryan >>> https://twitter.com/kanzure >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>> >> >> > --000000000000c1415205fb5b0fac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I see it was merged since my original post. I agree that i= s a very short window of time. In particular, if a long-time Core contribut= or wasn't able to attend the in-person meeting or last week's IRC m= eeting, they'd have had to really been on the ball.

On Wed, May 10, 2023= at 10:22=E2=80=AFAM Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@protonmail.com> wrote:
>=C2=A0Blocking Vasil was discussed on a similar GitHub= PR. Whether or not one agrees or disagrees, the same process is being used= . Anyone can NACK and give a reason for Russ as well.

With respect Steve the process for Vasil was k= eeping Vasil's PR open for up to 5 months with zero NACKs and two maint= ainers refusing to engage on why it wasn't being merged or what it need= ed for it to be merged. Followed by a later justification for blocking it t= hat they've refused to discuss whether it applies to Russ.
=

The process for Russ was the maintain= ers deciding privately there was a need for a maintainer "who understo= od our interfaces and modularization efforts well" and his PR was merg= ed within 2 days.

If that= 's the same process to you I don't know what to say. We have differ= ent perspectives on what constitutes a decision process.

(I'm sure this is clear but just to rei= terate in case it isn't none of this is a criticism of Russ.)

Thanks
Michael

--
Michael Folkson
Email: michaelfolkson = at protonmail.com
GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F
<= span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,"Liberation Mono&quo= t;,Menlo,monospace,monospace">
=20
=20

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 17:36, Steve Lee <steven.j.lee@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

Blocking Vasil was discussed on a similar GitH= ub PR. Whether or not one agrees or disagrees, the same process is being us= ed. Anyone can NACK and give a reason for Russ as well.

On Wed, May 10, 2023= at 8:55=E2=80=AFAM Michael Folkson <michae= lfolkson@protonmail.com> wrote:
Hi Steve

&= gt; Isn'= ;t this as simple as anyone (in particular Core project contributors) can e= xpress their view in this PR? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27604

Nope. The extent to= which the rationale for blocking Vasil as a maintainer applies or doesn= 9;t apply to ryanofsky (or future potential maintainers) isn't discusse= d. From now on the precedent is proposed maintainers can be blocked for unk= nown and/or potentially inconsistent reasons by the existing maintainers. <= /div>

<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Thanks
Michael

--
Michael Folkson
Email: michaelfolkson = at protonmail.com
GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE= 0F


------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 03:44, Steve Lee via bitcoin-dev &l= t;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.or= g> wrote:

Isn't this as simple as anyone (in particu= lar Core project contributors) can express their view in this PR? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/27604<= /a>

On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 5:03=E2=80=AFAM Bryan Bishop via bitcoin-dev <= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 2023-05-06 21:03, Micha= el Folkson via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> Essentially my concern is going forward current maintainers will
> decide which proposed new maintainers to add and which to block.

This is how a large percentage of organizations are run. The current
members of a board or other governance group choose who will become a
new board member.

Yes but it's unrelated to wh= at Bitcoin Core is-- a volunteer project of independent contributors mergin= g different pull requests or patches. The github controls are merely becaus= e that is how github works. There is also a secondary issue of people tendi= ng to confuse Bitcoin Core with the bitcoin protocol in general:
https://blog.lopp.net/who-controls-bitco= in-core/
https://medium.com/@bergealex4/the-tao-of-bitcoin-development-ff093= c6155cd
https://bitcoi= nmagazine.com/culture/a-primer-on-bitcoin-governance-or-why-developers-aren= -t-in-charge-of-the-protocol-1473270427

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<= /a>
https://lists.linuxf= oundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


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