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From: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
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To: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Drivechain RfD -- Follow Up
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Paul,

> The confusion below stems from his conflation of several different =
ideas.

I'm right here, are you having a conversation with me or are you on a =
stage talking to an audience?

> FYI that document is nearly two years old, and although it is still =
overwhelmingly accurate, new optimizations allow us (I think) to push =
the waiting period to several weeks and the total ACK counting period up =
to several months.

What does that have to do with my question? The counting period, if I =
understood correctly, is something miners do, not full nodes.

Also, if the document is old and/or outdated, do you happen to have a =
link to a more update-to-date version of the spec? It would be helpful =
for review.

> Because if a node doesn't have the sidechain's information, it will =
just assume every withdrawal is valid. This is comparable to someone who =
still hasn't upgraded to support P2SH, in cases [DC#0] and [#1].

Right, for [DC#0] and [DC#1], but for [DC#2] an [DC#3] you marked it as =
"Yes" without substantiating why you did so.

> Again, from the perspective of a mainchain user, every withdrawal is =
valid.

And that is not how P2SH works.

> [DC#2] and [DC#3] would certainly have an interest in understanding =
what is going on, but that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with =
Bitcoin Core and so is off-topic for this mailing list.

How is that an answer to my question?

What does "[DC#2] and [DC#3] would certainly have an interest in =
understanding what is going on" mean?

In P2SH, all upgraded nodes will reject invalid P2SH transactions, =
period.

What exactly would [DC#2] and [DC#3] nodes do when faced with an invalid =
WT^ transaction =E2=80=94 invalid in the sense that it contains funds =
which miners are stealing?

Again, in P2SH miners cannot steal funds, because all full nodes have a =
fully automatic enforcement policy.

Kind regards,
Greg Slepak

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.

> On Jul 12, 2017, at 5:26 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com =
<mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> The confusion below stems from his conflation of several different =
ideas.
>=20
> I will try to explicitly clarify a distinction between several types =
of user (or, "modes" of use if you prefer):
>=20
> [DC#0] -- Someone who does not upgrade their Bitcoin software (and is =
running, say, 0.13). However, they experience the effects of the new =
rules which miners add (as per the soft fork[s] to add drivechain =
functionality and individual drivechains).
> [DC#1] -- Someone who always upgrades to the latest version of the =
Bitcoin software, but otherwise has no interest in running/using =
sidechains.
> [DC#2] -- Someone who upgrades to the latest Bitcoin version, and =
decides to also become a full node of one or more sidechains, but who =
ever actually uses the sidechains.
> [DC#3] -- Someone who upgrades their software, runs sidechain full =
nodes, and actively moves money to and from these.
>=20
>=20
> On 7/12/2017 6:43 PM, Tao Effect wrote:
>>=20
>> I am now looking closer again at step number 4 in the Drivechain =
specification [2]:
>>=20
>> 4. Everyone waits for a period of, say, 3 days. This gives everyone =
an opportunity to make sure the same WT^ is in both the Bitcoin coinbase =
and the Sidechain header. If they=E2=80=99re different, everyone has =
plenty of time to contact each other, figure out what is going on, and =
restart the process until its right.
>> It seems to me that where our disagreement lies is in this point.
>> The Drivechain spec seems to claim that its use of anyone-can-pay is =
the same as P2SH (and in later emails you reference SegWit as well). Is =
this really true?
> FYI that document is nearly two years old, and although it is still =
overwhelmingly accurate, new optimizations allow us (I think) to push =
the waiting period to several weeks and the total ACK counting period up =
to several months.
>=20
> [DC#0] Yes
> [DC#1] Yes
> [DC#2] Yes
> [DC#3] Yes
>=20
> Because if a node doesn't have the sidechain's information, it will =
just assume every withdrawal is valid. This is comparable to someone who =
still hasn't upgraded to support P2SH, in cases [DC#0] and [#1].
>=20
> (And this is the main advantage of DC over extension blocks).
>=20
>=20
>> 2. Per the question in [1], it's my understanding that P2SH =
transactions contain all of the information within themselves for full =
nodes to act as a check on miners mishandling the anyone-can-spend =
nature of P2SH transactions. However, that does not seem to be the case =
with WT^ transactions.
> [DC#0] They do.
> [DC#1] They do.
> [DC#2] They do.
> [DC#3] They do.
>=20
> Again, from the perspective of a mainchain user, every withdrawal is =
valid.
>=20
>=20
>> In P2SH txns, there is no need for anyone to, as the Drivechain spec =
says, "to contact each other, figure out what is going on". Everything =
just automatically works.
> There is no *need* to this in Drivechain, either, for [DC#0] or =
[DC#1].
>=20
> [DC#2] and [DC#3] would certainly have an interest in understanding =
what is going on, but that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with =
Bitcoin Core and so is off-topic for this mailing list.
>=20
>=20
>> If the security of WT^ transactions could be brought up to actually =
be in line with the security of P2SH and SegWit transactions, then I =
would have far less to object to.
> Somehow I doubt it.
>=20
>=20
> Paul


--Apple-Mail=_A7BFFC63-791A-42CE-9404-C6B817AD1D90
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Paul,</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">The confusion below stems from =
his conflation of several different ideas.</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I'm right here, are you having a =
conversation with me or are you on a stage talking to an audience?<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">FYI that =
document is nearly two years old, and although it is still =
overwhelmingly accurate, new optimizations allow us (I think) to push =
the waiting period to several weeks and the total ACK counting period up =
to several months.</div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">What does that have to do with my question? The counting =
period, if I understood correctly, is something miners do, not full =
nodes.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also, =
if the document is old and/or outdated, do you happen to have a link to =
a more update-to-date version of the spec? It would be helpful for =
review.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div text=3D"#000000" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">Because if a node doesn't have the =
sidechain's information, it will just assume every withdrawal is valid. =
This is comparable to someone who still hasn't upgraded to support P2SH, =
in cases [DC#0] and [#1].<br class=3D""></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Right, for [DC#0] and [DC#1], but for =
[DC#2] an [DC#3] you marked it as "Yes" without substantiating why you =
did so.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div text=3D"#000000" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">Again, from the perspective of a =
mainchain user, every withdrawal is valid.</div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And that is not how P2SH =
works.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div text=3D"#000000" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">[DC#2] and [DC#3] would certainly have an =
interest in understanding what is going on, but that has absolutely =
nothing whatsoever to do with Bitcoin Core and so is off-topic for this =
mailing list.<br class=3D""></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">How is that an answer to my question?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What does "[DC#2] and [DC#3] would =
certainly have an interest in understanding what is going on" =
mean?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In P2SH, =
all upgraded nodes will reject invalid P2SH transactions, =
period.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What =
exactly would [DC#2] and [DC#3] nodes do when faced with an invalid WT^ =
transaction =E2=80=94 invalid in the sense that it contains funds which =
miners are stealing?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Again, in P2SH miners cannot steal funds, because all full =
nodes have a fully automatic enforcement policy.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kind regards,</div><div class=3D"">Greg =
Slepak</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that you are not =
comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 12, 2017, at 5:26 PM, Paul Sztorc &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" class=3D"">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">The confusion below stems from his
      conflation of several different ideas.<br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      I will try to explicitly clarify a distinction between several
      types of user (or, "modes" of use if you prefer):<br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      [DC#0] -- Someone who does not upgrade their Bitcoin software (and
      is running, say, 0.13). However, they experience the effects of
      the new rules which miners add (as per the soft fork[s] to add
      drivechain functionality and individual drivechains).<br class=3D"">=

      [DC#1] -- Someone who always upgrades to the latest version of the
      Bitcoin software, but otherwise has no interest in running/using
      sidechains.<br class=3D"">
      [DC#2] -- Someone who upgrades to the latest Bitcoin version, and
      decides to also become a full node of one or more sidechains, but
      who ever actually uses the sidechains.<br class=3D"">
      [DC#3] -- Someone who upgrades their software, runs sidechain full
      nodes, and actively moves money to and from these.<br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      On 7/12/2017 6:43 PM, Tao Effect wrote:<br class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:F2C3A9F4-07AB-41B9-B915-9E33EE313F9E@taoeffect.com" =
class=3D"">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <div class=3D"">I am now looking closer again at step number 4 in
        the Drivechain specification [2]:</div>
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
      </div>
      <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding:
        0px;" class=3D"">
        <div class=3D"">
          <div class=3D"">4. Everyone waits for a period of, say, 3 =
days.
            This gives everyone an opportunity to make sure the same WT^
            is in both the Bitcoin coinbase and the Sidechain header. If
            they=E2=80=99re different, everyone has plenty of time to =
contact
            each other, figure out what is going on, and restart the
            process until its right.</div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <div class=3D"">It seems to me that where our disagreement lies is
        in this point.</div>
      <div class=3D"">The Drivechain spec seems to claim that its use of
        anyone-can-pay is the same as P2SH (and in later emails you
        reference SegWit as well). Is this really true?</div>
    </blockquote>
    FYI that document is nearly two years old, and although it is still
    overwhelmingly accurate, new optimizations allow us (I think) to
    push the waiting period to several weeks and the total ACK counting
    period up to several months.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    [DC#0] Yes<br class=3D"">
    [DC#1] Yes<br class=3D"">
    [DC#2] Yes<br class=3D"">
    [DC#3] Yes<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Because if a node doesn't have the sidechain's information, it will
    just assume every withdrawal is valid. This is comparable to someone
    who still hasn't upgraded to support P2SH, in cases [DC#0] and =
[#1].<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    (And this is the main advantage of DC over extension blocks).<br =
class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:F2C3A9F4-07AB-41B9-B915-9E33EE313F9E@taoeffect.com" =
class=3D"">
      <div class=3D"">2. Per the question in [1], it's my understanding
        that P2SH transactions contain all of the information within
        themselves for full nodes to act as a check on miners
        mishandling the anyone-can-spend nature of P2SH transactions.
        However, that does not seem to be the case with WT^
        transactions.</div>
    </blockquote>
    [DC#0] They do.<br class=3D"">
    [DC#1] They do.<br class=3D"">
    [DC#2] They do.<br class=3D"">
    [DC#3] They do.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Again, from the perspective of a mainchain user, every withdrawal is
    valid.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:F2C3A9F4-07AB-41B9-B915-9E33EE313F9E@taoeffect.com" =
class=3D"">
      <div class=3D"">In P2SH txns, there is no need for anyone to, as =
the
        Drivechain spec says, "to contact each other, figure out what is
        going on". Everything just automatically works.</div>
    </blockquote>
    There is no *need* to this in Drivechain, either, for [DC#0] or
    [DC#1].<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    [DC#2] and [DC#3] would certainly have an interest in understanding
    what is going on, but that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do
    with Bitcoin Core and so is off-topic for this mailing list.<br =
class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:F2C3A9F4-07AB-41B9-B915-9E33EE313F9E@taoeffect.com" =
class=3D"">
      <div class=3D"">If the security of WT^ transactions could be =
brought
        up to actually be in line with the security of P2SH and SegWit
        transactions, then I would have far less to object to.</div>
    </blockquote>
    Somehow I doubt it.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Paul<br class=3D"">
  </div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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