1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
|
Return-Path: <conner@enigma.co>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
[172.17.192.35])
by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C255A258
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 8 Jun 2017 05:44:52 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-it0-f47.google.com (mail-it0-f47.google.com
[209.85.214.47])
by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A53DE15F
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Thu, 8 Jun 2017 05:44:51 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-it0-f47.google.com with SMTP id m47so120578228iti.1
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 07 Jun 2017 22:44:51 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=enigma-co.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623;
h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to
:cc; bh=YjEkcflsEOqD8rGyPwatxULHI3Zo0oWYLxZyEdGiV9U=;
b=X8dC3u+hhMBAUyZFDYF8S8HzMXsTniVFPaskDg4luPzjie1tiMvQ/irfWnntJ/TkLh
TcYNE8iGzQaXcHJCRncDN/iNqOjtB2c0QSawjE3coBjXK1NObhJpIEKQ70gR6UuBLeyE
m5ozJc5n+u+7fnZGSBc39oDM9sp9gj/zgSsxGdGG4OQvvB0hbmvvFR7471uGCHB17scz
lMOBn1J00Z6Tq9+FI6tlC69+weoGRmcML5S9vNRM819LALEEpX6ndN+EWuKgGnT7xmjM
DmKXewuU3Mh7d9+bgmRT9lTas4lBKG7h9UQb2a0hYCBc90I89LneeLKJk7UlB2wvzcx3
5gMw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
:message-id:subject:to:cc;
bh=YjEkcflsEOqD8rGyPwatxULHI3Zo0oWYLxZyEdGiV9U=;
b=B5jsUK4R1J35v0ORMd8Ls9dVWJBeatkc54jrnjn4VJLK0ebiTb3LSR2Gjq1SqxLTUw
zdHFI/Ddcgyjw7sZmDbqP0Kbuglq/eLECbpISxYEy7hQmzUJ9LtmwYAw/AbJ/NhGQ3eD
7pz3aq/KubrS0SVI57USBMt3qgcuWk+TfdTCwWp0P+AY6PjIMfEoU05yAfGwwN20muFA
ak/gdlvKq49WHUun2mMDahEyt1ZtcumcNjSBy65khlRB6cZTLJ2qTGaEwVC4urtiU1rg
no/Yk4MYNOHeMBeoDjkI/jk31ofnmW28B2791KU+RwMtuXvUYiJAnHUxM0rTK3J8Jwln
Wt4Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcApxNyxrdmFlHlMJWyicB1DZIav4W47qU/NMIG4dkfNEOCFl/fj
1IWGqxpet7/QdQpiS9Bs2AlQfgoh8wGG
X-Received: by 10.36.185.87 with SMTP id k23mr3769468iti.9.1496900690769; Wed,
07 Jun 2017 22:44:50 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <31833011-7179-49D1-A07E-8FD9556C4534@taoeffect.com>
<CAAS2fgSU+UtbJSSAhf0-Sd0GH-RGnZmv+WHWtFV2zHFW2q6_yg@mail.gmail.com>
<CAFz7pMuQTdUBmOOB7aPrgkDNZvQTn_jfantfLQQVWoerD=D2Kg@mail.gmail.com>
<F9930B98-BBCC-4B4D-B938-AE2CFB7721AD@taoeffect.com>
<CAFz7pMvk5acuXRXPiMwo63A=RgdnhFXrMWmED3JLXXP5BPMf6g@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAFz7pMvk5acuXRXPiMwo63A=RgdnhFXrMWmED3JLXXP5BPMf6g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Conner Fromknecht <conner@enigma.co>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 05:44:40 +0000
Message-ID: <CACkD=vGQbO830Yi8ZqGnZKjttksgCO=S3M+r1w9c9VHZMEUovw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Nick Johnson <nick@ethereum.org>, Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045d9ab2f00d8205516c5953"
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
smtp1.linux-foundation.org
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 13:31:22 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Replay attacks make BIP148 and BIP149 untennable
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 05:44:52 -0000
--f403045d9ab2f00d8205516c5953
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I don't normally post here, but I'm sorry, if you don't see those two as
equal, then I think you have misunderstood the *entire* value proposition
of cryptocurrencies.
The state of any cryptocurrency should entirely (and only) be defined by
its ledger. If the state of the system can be altered outside of the rules
governing its ledger, then the system isn't secure. It doesn't matter
whether the people making those changes are the ones that are leading the
project or not. An "irregular state change" is a fancy term for a bailout.
I'm sure I speak for more than myself in saying that an "irregular state
change" is equivalent to modifying the underlying ledger. Let's not let
semantics keep us from recognizing what actually took place.
-Conner
On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 14:14 Nick Johnson via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 5:27 PM Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com> wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> Please don't spread misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard
>> fork, it's a simple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited.
>>
>>
>> This sort of email is unhelpful to this conversation, and it certainly
>> doesn't help with the perception that Ethereum is nothing but a bunch of
>> hypocritical Bankers 2.0.
>>
>
>
>>
>> Everyone knows you didn't edit Ethereum Classic, but the the hard fork,
>> which was re-branded as Ethereum, was edited.
>>
>
> That's not what I was suggesting. My point is that the ledger was never
> edited. An 'irregular state change' was added at a specific block height,
> but the ledger remains inviolate.
>
> I'm sure I don't have to explain the difference between the ledger and the
> state to you, or why it's significant that the ledger wasn't (and can't be,
> practically) modified.
>
> -Nick
>
>
>> - Greg
>>
>> --
>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with
>> the NSA.
>>
>> On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Nick Johnson <nick@ethereum.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:02 AM Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev
>>> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>> > I believe the severity of replay attacks is going unvoiced and is not
>>> > understood within the bitcoin community because of their lack of
>>> experience
>>> > with them.
>>>
>>> Please don't insult our community-- the issues with replay were
>>> pointed out by us to Ethereum in advance and were cited specifically
>>> in prior hardfork discussions long before Ethereum started editing
>>> their ledger for the economic benefit of its centralized
>>> administrators.
>>
>>
>> Please don't spread misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard
>> fork, it's a simple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited.
>>
>> -Nick Johnson
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--f403045d9ab2f00d8205516c5953
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't normally post here, but I'm sorry, if you don't see tho=
se two as equal, then I think you have misunderstood the *entire* value pro=
position of cryptocurrencies. <br><br>The state of any cryptocurrency shoul=
d entirely (and only) be defined by its ledger. If the state of the system =
can be altered outside of the rules governing its ledger, then the system i=
sn't secure. It doesn't matter whether the people making those chan=
ges are the ones that are leading the project or not. An "irregular st=
ate change" is a fancy term for a bailout. <br><br>I'm sure I spea=
k for more than myself in saying that an "irregular state change"=
is equivalent to modifying the underlying ledger. Let's not let semant=
ics keep us from recognizing what actually took place. <br><br>-Conner <br>=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 14:1=
4 Nick Johnson via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linu=
xfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 5:27 PM Tao Effect <<a href=
=3D"mailto:contact@taoeffect.com" target=3D"_blank">contact@taoeffect.com</=
a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wr=
ap:break-word">Nick,<div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div>Please don't spread misinformation. Whatever you think of the DA=
O hard fork, it's a simple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited=
.</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-w=
ord"><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><=
div>This sort of email is unhelpful to this conversation, and it certainly =
doesn't help with the perception that Ethereum is nothing but a bunch o=
f hypocritical Bankers 2.0.</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote=
><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:br=
eak-word"><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></=
div><div>Everyone knows you didn't edit Ethereum Classic, but the the h=
ard fork, which was re-branded as Ethereum, was edited.</div></div></div></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>That's not what I was suggesting. My poin=
t is that the ledger was never edited. An 'irregular state change' =
was added at a specific block height, but the ledger remains inviolate.</di=
v><div><br></div><div>I'm sure I don't have to explain the differen=
ce between the ledger and the state to you, or why it's significant tha=
t the ledger wasn't (and can't be, practically) modified.</div></di=
v></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>-Ni=
ck</div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>- Gre=
g</div></div></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv><div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;=
font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:n=
ormal"><br class=3D"m_-6744943771006540982m_5027450713491352794Apple-interc=
hange-newline">--</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica=
;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:norm=
al;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-v=
ariant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asia=
n:normal;line-height:normal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:He=
lvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal=
;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ea=
st-asian:normal;line-height:normal">Please do not email me anything that yo=
u are not comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-liga=
tures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;fon=
t-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal">=C2=A0with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div>On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Nick Johnson <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:nick@ethereum.org" target=3D"_blank">nick@ethereum.org</a>> wrote:=
</div><br class=3D"m_-6744943771006540982m_5027450713491352794Apple-interch=
ange-newline"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:02 AM Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev <<a=
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bi=
tcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev=
<br>
<<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> I believe the severity of replay attacks is going unvoiced and is not<=
br>
> understood within the bitcoin community because of their lack of exper=
ience<br>
> with them.<br>
<br>
Please don't insult our community-- the issues with replay were<br>
pointed out by us to Ethereum in advance and were cited specifically<br>
in prior hardfork discussions long before Ethereum started editing<br>
their ledger for the economic benefit of its centralized<br>
administrators.</blockquote><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Please don't sp=
read misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard fork, it's a si=
mple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited.</div><div><br></div><div=
>-Nick Johnson</div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
--f403045d9ab2f00d8205516c5953--
|
