Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C255A258 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 05:44:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-it0-f47.google.com (mail-it0-f47.google.com [209.85.214.47]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A53DE15F for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2017 05:44:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-it0-f47.google.com with SMTP id m47so120578228iti.1 for ; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 22:44:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=enigma-co.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YjEkcflsEOqD8rGyPwatxULHI3Zo0oWYLxZyEdGiV9U=; b=X8dC3u+hhMBAUyZFDYF8S8HzMXsTniVFPaskDg4luPzjie1tiMvQ/irfWnntJ/TkLh TcYNE8iGzQaXcHJCRncDN/iNqOjtB2c0QSawjE3coBjXK1NObhJpIEKQ70gR6UuBLeyE m5ozJc5n+u+7fnZGSBc39oDM9sp9gj/zgSsxGdGG4OQvvB0hbmvvFR7471uGCHB17scz lMOBn1J00Z6Tq9+FI6tlC69+weoGRmcML5S9vNRM819LALEEpX6ndN+EWuKgGnT7xmjM DmKXewuU3Mh7d9+bgmRT9lTas4lBKG7h9UQb2a0hYCBc90I89LneeLKJk7UlB2wvzcx3 5gMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YjEkcflsEOqD8rGyPwatxULHI3Zo0oWYLxZyEdGiV9U=; b=B5jsUK4R1J35v0ORMd8Ls9dVWJBeatkc54jrnjn4VJLK0ebiTb3LSR2Gjq1SqxLTUw zdHFI/Ddcgyjw7sZmDbqP0Kbuglq/eLECbpISxYEy7hQmzUJ9LtmwYAw/AbJ/NhGQ3eD 7pz3aq/KubrS0SVI57USBMt3qgcuWk+TfdTCwWp0P+AY6PjIMfEoU05yAfGwwN20muFA ak/gdlvKq49WHUun2mMDahEyt1ZtcumcNjSBy65khlRB6cZTLJ2qTGaEwVC4urtiU1rg no/Yk4MYNOHeMBeoDjkI/jk31ofnmW28B2791KU+RwMtuXvUYiJAnHUxM0rTK3J8Jwln Wt4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AODbwcApxNyxrdmFlHlMJWyicB1DZIav4W47qU/NMIG4dkfNEOCFl/fj 1IWGqxpet7/QdQpiS9Bs2AlQfgoh8wGG X-Received: by 10.36.185.87 with SMTP id k23mr3769468iti.9.1496900690769; Wed, 07 Jun 2017 22:44:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <31833011-7179-49D1-A07E-8FD9556C4534@taoeffect.com> In-Reply-To: From: Conner Fromknecht Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 05:44:40 +0000 Message-ID: To: Nick Johnson , Tao Effect Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045d9ab2f00d8205516c5953" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 13:31:22 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Replay attacks make BIP148 and BIP149 untennable X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 05:44:52 -0000 --f403045d9ab2f00d8205516c5953 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I don't normally post here, but I'm sorry, if you don't see those two as equal, then I think you have misunderstood the *entire* value proposition of cryptocurrencies. The state of any cryptocurrency should entirely (and only) be defined by its ledger. If the state of the system can be altered outside of the rules governing its ledger, then the system isn't secure. It doesn't matter whether the people making those changes are the ones that are leading the project or not. An "irregular state change" is a fancy term for a bailout. I'm sure I speak for more than myself in saying that an "irregular state change" is equivalent to modifying the underlying ledger. Let's not let semantics keep us from recognizing what actually took place. -Conner On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 14:14 Nick Johnson via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 5:27 PM Tao Effect wrote: > >> Nick, >> >> Please don't spread misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard >> fork, it's a simple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited. >> >> >> This sort of email is unhelpful to this conversation, and it certainly >> doesn't help with the perception that Ethereum is nothing but a bunch of >> hypocritical Bankers 2.0. >> > > >> >> Everyone knows you didn't edit Ethereum Classic, but the the hard fork, >> which was re-branded as Ethereum, was edited. >> > > That's not what I was suggesting. My point is that the ledger was never > edited. An 'irregular state change' was added at a specific block height, > but the ledger remains inviolate. > > I'm sure I don't have to explain the difference between the ledger and the > state to you, or why it's significant that the ledger wasn't (and can't be, > practically) modified. > > -Nick > > >> - Greg >> >> -- >> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with >> the NSA. >> >> On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:25 AM, Nick Johnson wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:02 AM Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev >>> wrote: >>> > I believe the severity of replay attacks is going unvoiced and is not >>> > understood within the bitcoin community because of their lack of >>> experience >>> > with them. >>> >>> Please don't insult our community-- the issues with replay were >>> pointed out by us to Ethereum in advance and were cited specifically >>> in prior hardfork discussions long before Ethereum started editing >>> their ledger for the economic benefit of its centralized >>> administrators. >> >> >> Please don't spread misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard >> fork, it's a simple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited. >> >> -Nick Johnson >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --f403045d9ab2f00d8205516c5953 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't normally post here, but I'm sorry, if you don't see tho= se two as equal, then I think you have misunderstood the *entire* value pro= position of cryptocurrencies.

The state of any cryptocurrency shoul= d entirely (and only) be defined by its ledger. If the state of the system = can be altered outside of the rules governing its ledger, then the system i= sn't secure. It doesn't matter whether the people making those chan= ges are the ones that are leading the project or not. An "irregular st= ate change" is a fancy term for a bailout.

I'm sure I spea= k for more than myself in saying that an "irregular state change"= is equivalent to modifying the underlying ledger. Let's not let semant= ics keep us from recognizing what actually took place.

-Conner
=
That's not what I was suggesting. My poin= t is that the ledger was never edited. An 'irregular state change' = was added at a specific block height, but the ledger remains inviolate.

I'm sure I don't have to explain the differen= ce between the ledger and the state to you, or why it's significant tha= t the ledger wasn't (and can't be, practically) modified.

-Ni= ck


- Gre= g

--
Please do not email me anything that yo= u are not comfortable also sharing=C2=A0with the NSA.


On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:02 AM Gregory Maxwell via bitcoin-dev <bi= tcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev=
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> I believe the severity of replay attacks is going unvoiced and is not<= br> > understood within the bitcoin community because of their lack of exper= ience
> with them.

Please don't insult our community-- the issues with replay were
pointed out by us to Ethereum in advance and were cited specifically
in prior hardfork discussions long before Ethereum started editing
their ledger for the economic benefit of its centralized
administrators.
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Please don't sp= read misinformation. Whatever you think of the DAO hard fork, it's a si= mple fact that the Ethereum ledger was not edited.

-Nick Johnson

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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