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| author | Thy Shizzle <thyshizzle@outlook.com> | 2015-03-23 17:10:12 +1100 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2015-03-23 06:10:31 +0000 |
| commit | da1be90bc6f74d94d239b4502a1c6a5ac7ebac9f (patch) | |
| tree | 9713df3d51523177000edd94c8fd16feaeccc4e9 | |
| parent | 194b2afb37568a32c09bb33bf3b75dd22d951708 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-da1be90bc6f74d94d239b4502a1c6a5ac7ebac9f.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-da1be90bc6f74d94d239b4502a1c6a5ac7ebac9f.zip | |
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Criminal complaints against "network disruption as a service" startups
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diff --git a/f5/be657f42f1104d11741c246163fffb8e058d1b b/f5/be657f42f1104d11741c246163fffb8e058d1b new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a6c9cbd23 --- /dev/null +++ b/f5/be657f42f1104d11741c246163fffb8e058d1b @@ -0,0 +1,771 @@ +Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] + helo=mx.sourceforge.net) + by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) + (envelope-from <thyshizzle@outlook.com>) id 1YZvZH-0007TL-5V + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Mon, 23 Mar 2015 06:10:31 +0000 +Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of outlook.com + designates 65.55.34.218 as permitted sender) + client-ip=65.55.34.218; envelope-from=thyshizzle@outlook.com; + helo=COL004-OMC4S16.hotmail.com; +Received: from col004-omc4s16.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.218]) + by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) + (Exim 4.76) id 1YZvZE-0005H2-3R + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Mon, 23 Mar 2015 06:10:31 +0000 +Received: from COL401-EAS421 ([65.55.34.201]) by COL004-OMC4S16.hotmail.com + over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.22751); + Sun, 22 Mar 2015 23:10:21 -0700 +X-TMN: [xUQegOibU5xtHgjzhmtgqRYyidKDsNSF] +X-Originating-Email: [thyshizzle@outlook.com] +Message-ID: <COL401-EAS421DD08D2BE08D9601E5139C20D0@phx.gbl> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="_45dd4ad8-c5b7-4083-ab52-0387b89558a8_" +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: odinn <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net> +From: Thy Shizzle <thyshizzle@outlook.com> +Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:10:12 +1100 +X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Mar 2015 06:10:21.0973 (UTC) + FILETIME=[0B833C50:01D06530] +X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) +X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. + See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. + -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for + sender-domain + -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, + no trust [65.55.34.218 listed in list.dnswl.org] + 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider + (thyshizzle[at]outlook.com) + -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record + 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message + -0.5 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address +X-Headers-End: 1YZvZE-0005H2-3R +Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Criminal complaints against "network + disruption as a service" startups +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 +Precedence: list +List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 06:10:31 -0000 + +--_45dd4ad8-c5b7-4083-ab52-0387b89558a8_ +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" + +Oh so you're talking about the criminality of one single entity? So having = +a quick look=2C it seems that the issue is they are collecting IPs and that= + kind of thing as well? So similar to what http://getaddr.bitnodes.io is do= +ing but without the funding from the bitcoin foundation? If you are worried= + about your IP getting out you're behind a VPN. They can only collect the i= +nformation made available to them. Botnets etc are completely different bec= +ause you are forcing control over something you have no right to do. If com= +panies want to sit there and collect publicly available information that yo= +u are voluntarily making available to them=2C why do you care? I can't see = +how it could be at all criminal. Remembering that most privacy laws relate = +to information that YOU PROVIDE to an entity during an agreement for servic= +e=2C payment=2C etc. You are providing this information publicly and they a= +re collecting it from the public domain=2C not you giving it to them in an = +agreement=2C therefore the usual provisions of privacy etc don't apply. If = +you connect to their scraper node=2C of course they can log that. How could= + it possibly be criminal? +________________________________ +From: odinn<mailto:odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net> +Sent: =E2=80=8E23/=E2=80=8E03/=E2=80=8E2015 4:50 PM +To: Thy Shizzle<mailto:thyshizzle@outlook.com> +Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net<mailto:bitcoin-development@li= +sts.sourceforge.net> +Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Criminal complaints against "network dis= +ruption as a service" startups + +-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- +Hash: SHA512 + +Back to what is Chainalysis and country of their origin=2C so criminal +complaints against them would likely relate to violation of Swiss +laws=2C as is described here: +https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D978088.msg10774882#msg10774882 + +It is fairly obvious that Chainalysis is not merely doing what +blockchain.info etc. is. Let's not delude ourselves here. + +As stated=2C it would be advisable for such a firm to cease operations=2C +and it would seem that plenty of polite shots over the bow have been +given to Chainalysis=2C which should now fold up its operation=2C pack its +bags=2C and go back to its hole before trying to serve its masters again +in another way. Etc. + +Corporations similar to Chainalysis which are domiciled in other +countries which conduct collection of information in ways that violate +countries' laws (there are many countries and each have their own ways +of interpreting user privacy and what constitutes permissible breach +and in what circumstances) can indeed be held to legal standards that +may result in minimal or severe legal penalties. It is true that +analyzing information that is publicly available=2C such as that which +is in a library=2C is not illegal. But the act of surveillance is. +(Then there is the question of what sort of surveillance=2C targeted or +general=2C and whether it is limited to the bitcoin network or if it +moves beyond that to attempts to correlate with usernames=2C IDs=2C IPs=2C +and other information available on fora and apparent from services=2C +but I won't get into that here.) Even if you argue that the manner in +which you are performing your actions is not actually "surveillance=2C" +or you argue that it is "legally permissible=2C" someone else will +certainly come along and make a reasonable argument that you are +indeed engaging in illegal surveillance. They may even suggest to a +judge that you are in the process of constructing a botnet and demand +that your domains be seized=2C and may successfully obtain an ex parte +temporary restraining order (TRO) against Chainalysis and similar +corporations to have domain(s) seized. Any and all arguments may be +added in here=2C there are 196 countries in the world today - each with +their own unique laws - (maybe less by the time you read this) and a +shit-ton of possible legal arguments that can be made by creative +minds that might want to sue you if you have been surveilling people=2C +each different depending on where your surveillance corporation is +domiciled. There are plenty of legal processes available for people +to do exactly that. You are indeed subject to having that happen to +you if you continue to surveill the network even if you are doing so +on behalf of the state for the purpose of gathering information for a +state's compliance initiative. + +So=2C don't delude yourself=2C and be happy if all that happens is your +little surveillance initiative has to close its doors (or gets sued if +it stays open). Because that is the legal side of things. The +extralegal stuff is far worse. The community is helping you by asking +you gently to close up shop and go away. It is a helpful suggestion +and I believe also a fair warning=2C again=2C a shot off the bow. + +On the development side=2C developers are certainly responsible for +doing what they can to resist this kind of surveillance activity. But +I have a feeling that will be a different thread which is more +technical and so won't comment on it here=2C except to say it will +likely involve working toward giving the user an anonymity option +which can be exercised as part of any transaction. + +Thy Shizzle: +> I don't believe that at all. Analyzing information publicly +> available is not illegal. Chainalysis or whatever you call it would +> be likened to observing who comes and feeds birds at the park +> everyday. You can sit in the park and observe who feeds the birds=2C +> just as you can connect to the Bitcoin P2P network and observe the +> blocks being formed into the chain and transactions etc. Unless +> there is some agreement taking place where it is specified that +> upon connecting to the Bitcoin P2P swarm you agree to a set of +> terms=2C however as every node is providing their own "entry" into +> the P2P swarm it becomes really up to the node providing the +> connection to uphold and enforce the terms of the agreement. If you +> allow people to connect to you without terms of agreement=2C you +> cannot cry foul when they record the data that passes through. To +> say Chainalysis needs to cease is silly=2C the whole point of the +> public blockchain is for Chainalysis=2C whether it be for the +> verification of transactions=2C research or otherwise. +> +> -----Original Message----- From: "odinn" +> <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net> Sent: =E2=80=8E23/=E2=80=8E03/=E2=80=8E= +2015 1:48 PM To: +> "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" +> <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: +> [Bitcoin-development] Criminal complaints against "network +> disruption as a service" startups +> +> If you (e.g. Chainalysis) or anyone else are doing surveillance on +> the network and gathering information for later use=2C and whether or +> not the ultimate purpose is to divulge it to other parties for +> compliance purposes=2C you can bet that ultimately the tables will be +> turned on you=2C and you will be the one having your ass handed to +> you so to speak=2C before or after you are served=2C in legal parlance. +> Whether or not the outcome of that is meaningful and beneficial to +> any concerned parties and what is the upshot of it in the end +> depends on on what you do and just how far you decide to take your +> ill-advised enterprise. +> +> Chainalysis and similar operations would be=2C IMHO=2C well advised to +> cease operations. This doesn't mean they will=2C but guess what: +> +> Shot over the bow=2C folks. +> +> Jan M=C3=B8ller: +>> What we were trying to achieve was determining the flow of funds +>> between countries by figuring out which country a transaction +>> originates from. To do that with a certain accuracy you need +>> many nodes. We chose a class C IP range as we knew that bitcoin +>> core and others only connect to one node in any class C IP range. +>> We were not aware that breadwallet didn't follow this practice. +>> Breadwallet risked getting tar-pitted=2C but that was not our +>> intention and we are sorry about that. +> +>> Our nodes DID respond with valid blocks and merkle-blocks and +>> allowed everyone connecting to track the blockchain. We did +>> however not relay transactions. The 'service' bit in the version +>> message is not meant for telling whether or how the node relays +>> transactions=2C it tells whether you can ask for block headers only +>> or full blocks. +> +>> Many implementations enforce non standard rules for handling +>> transactions=3B some nodes ignore transactions with address reuse=2C +>> some nodes happily forward double spends=2C and some nodes forward +>> neither blocks not transactions. We did blocks but not +>> transactions. +> +>> In hindsight we should have done two things: 1. relay +>> transactions 2. advertise address from 'foreign' nodes +> +>> Both would have fixed the problems that breadwallet experienced. +>> My understanding is that breadwallet now has the same 'class C' +>> rule as bitcoind=2C which would also fix it. +> +>> Getting back on the topic of this thread and whether it is +>> illegal=2C your guess is as good as mine. I don't think it is +>> illegal to log incoming connections and make statistical analysis +>> on it. That would more or less incriminate anyone who runs a +>> web-server and looks into the access log. At lease one Bitcoin +>> service has been collecting IP addresses for years and given them +>> to anyone visiting their web-site (you know who) and I believe +>> that this practise is very wrong. We have no intention of giving +>> IP addresses away to anyone=2C but we believe that you are free to +>> make statistics on connection logs when nodes connect to you. +> +>> On a side note: When you make many connections to the network +>> you see lots of strange nodes and suspicious patterns. You can +>> be certain that we were not the only ones connected to many +>> nodes. +> +>> My takeaway from this: If nodes that do not relay transactions is +>> a problem then there is stuff to fix. +> +>> /Jan +> +>> On Fri=2C Mar 13=2C 2015 at 10:48 PM=2C Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> +>> wrote: +> +>>> That would be rather new and tricky legal territory. +>>> +>>> But even putting the legal issues to one side=2C there are +>>> definitional issues. +>>> +>>> For instance if the Chainalysis nodes started following the +>>> protocol specs better and became just regular nodes that +>>> happen to keep logs=2C would that still be a violation? If so=2C +>>> what about blockchain.info? It'd be shooting ourselves in the +>>> foot to try and forbid block explorers given how useful they +>>> are. +>>> +>>> If someone non-maliciously runs some nodes with debug logging +>>> turned on=2C and makes full system backups every night=2C and +>>> keeps those backups for years=2C are they in violation of +>>> whatever pseudo-law is involved? +>>> +>>> I think it's a bit early to think about these things right +>>> now. Michael Gr=C3=B8nager and Jan M=C3=B8ller have been Bitcoin hacker= +s +>>> for a long time. I'd be interested to know their thoughts on +>>> all of this. +>>> +>>> +>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>>> +>>> +> +>>> +Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website=2C +>>> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot +>>> Media=2C is your hub for all things parallel software +>>> development=2C from weekly thought leadership blogs to news=2C +>>> videos=2C case studies=2C tutorials and more. Take a look and join +>>> the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ +>>> _______________________________________________ +>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>>> +>>> +> +>>> +> +> +>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= +------ +> +>> +> +> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel +> Website=2C sponsored +>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media=2C is +>> your hub for all things parallel software development=2C from +>> weekly thought leadership blogs to news=2C videos=2C case studies=2C +>> tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. +>> http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ +> +> +> +>> _______________________________________________ +>> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +> +> +> +> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= +----- +> +> +Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website=2C +sponsored +> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media=2C is your +> hub for all things parallel software development=2C from weekly +> thought leadership blogs to news=2C videos=2C case studies=2C tutorials +> and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. +> http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ +> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development +> mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +> + +- -- +http://abis.io ~ +"a protocol concept to enable decentralization +and expansion of a giving economy=2C and a new social good" +https://keybase.io/odinn +-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- + +iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVD6mmAAoJEGxwq/inSG8CkLUH/iWvn7kp6KW2fe5RFca1eAmH +L+5P+kNDzMARIRt8A3CvopoQQMZx44aZ8pMdErUk+78A7oeP/x+scYEkSiXE17Iv +saBWv43mO+qFxgVrU7y+9njwLJoywHitBymhLGisi3hv+H7lfIMdPK2dLVThwxel +bVO0Ga8Y9qDYAwtK23yEOCT7klj5mT0tG50U4HxDpIXaJj8kCnVUC2O1MdYhr1pP +93cDuhBmXOg7sOLAPpdWVhgfnz0Vm8M0ZWUIK+4FGzpQugWHcmdp3YUDCeczOYzD +u5zVdAqvdL6qQcWkUcGfkKaAqfJH3u5F2zeQvDUEJeeEz1lWnrsXuT7cCvcp/TU=3D +=3D6io6 +-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- + +--_45dd4ad8-c5b7-4083-ab52-0387b89558a8_ +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" + +<html> +<head> +<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html=3B charset=3Dutf-8"> +</head> +<body> +<div> +<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B">Oh s= +o you're talking about the criminality of one single entity? So having a qu= +ick look=2C it seems that the issue is they are collecting IPs and that kin= +d of thing as well? So similar to what http://getaddr.bitnodes.io + is doing but without the funding from the bitcoin foundation? If you are w= +orried about your IP getting out you're behind a VPN. They can only collect= + the information made available to them. Botnets etc are completely differe= +nt because you are forcing control + over something you have no right to do. If companies want to sit there and= + collect publicly available information that you are voluntarily making ava= +ilable to them=2C why do you care? I can't see how it could be at all crimi= +nal. Remembering that most privacy + laws relate to information that YOU PROVIDE to an entity during an agreeme= +nt for service=2C payment=2C etc. You are providing this information public= +ly and they are collecting it from the public domain=2C not you giving it t= +o them in an agreement=2C therefore the + usual provisions of privacy etc don't apply. If you connect to their scrap= +er node=2C of course they can log that. How could it possibly be criminal? +</div> +</div> +<div dir=3D"ltr"> +<hr> +<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font= +-weight: bold=3B">From: +</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt= +=3B"><a href=3D"mailto:odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net">odinn</a></span><br= +> +<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font= +-weight: bold=3B">Sent: +</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt= +=3B">=E2=80=8E23/=E2=80=8E03/=E2=80=8E2015 4:50 PM</span><br> +<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font= +-weight: bold=3B">To: +</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt= +=3B"><a href=3D"mailto:thyshizzle@outlook.com">Thy Shizzle</a></span><br> +<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font= +-weight: bold=3B">Cc: +</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt= +=3B"><a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">bitcoin-d= +evelopment@lists.sourceforge.net</a></span><br> +<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font= +-weight: bold=3B">Subject: +</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt= +=3B">Re: [Bitcoin-development] Criminal complaints against "=3Bnetwork = +disruption as a service"=3B startups</span><br> +<br> +</div> +<div class=3D"BodyFragment"> +<div class=3D"PlainText">-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br> +Hash: SHA512<br> +<br> +Back to what is Chainalysis and country of their origin=2C so criminal<br> +complaints against them would likely relate to violation of Swiss<br> +laws=2C as is described here:<br> +<a href=3D"https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D978088.msg10774882#msg= +10774882">https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D978088.msg10774882#msg1= +0774882</a><br> +<br> +It is fairly obvious that Chainalysis is not merely doing what<br> +blockchain.info etc. is. Let's not delude ourselves here.<br> +<br> +As stated=2C it would be advisable for such a firm to cease operations=2C<b= +r> +and it would seem that plenty of polite shots over the bow have been<br> +given to Chainalysis=2C which should now fold up its operation=2C pack its<= +br> +bags=2C and go back to its hole before trying to serve its masters again<br= +> +in another way. Etc.<br> +<br> +Corporations similar to Chainalysis which are domiciled in other<br> +countries which conduct collection of information in ways that violate<br> +countries' laws (there are many countries and each have their own ways<br> +of interpreting user privacy and what constitutes permissible breach<br> +and in what circumstances) can indeed be held to legal standards that<br> +may result in minimal or severe legal penalties. =3B It is true that<br= +> +analyzing information that is publicly available=2C such as that which<br> +is in a library=2C is not illegal. But the act of surveillance is.<br> +(Then there is the question of what sort of surveillance=2C targeted or<br> +general=2C and whether it is limited to the bitcoin network or if it<br> +moves beyond that to attempts to correlate with usernames=2C IDs=2C IPs=2C<= +br> +and other information available on fora and apparent from services=2C<br> +but I won't get into that here.) =3B Even if you argue that the manner = +in<br> +which you are performing your actions is not actually "=3Bsurveillance= +=2C"=3B<br> +or you argue that it is "=3Blegally permissible=2C"=3B someone else= + will<br> +certainly come along and make a reasonable argument that you are<br> +indeed engaging in illegal surveillance. =3B They may even suggest to a= +<br> +judge that you are in the process of constructing a botnet and demand<br> +that your domains be seized=2C and may successfully obtain an ex parte<br> +temporary restraining order (TRO) against Chainalysis and similar<br> +corporations to have domain(s) seized. =3B Any and all arguments may be= +<br> +added in here=2C there are 196 countries in the world today - each with<br> +their own unique laws - (maybe less by the time you read this) and a<br> +shit-ton of possible legal arguments that can be made by creative<br> +minds that might want to sue you if you have been surveilling people=2C<br> +each different depending on where your surveillance corporation is<br> +domiciled. =3B There are plenty of legal processes available for people= +<br> +to do exactly that. =3B You are indeed subject to having that happen to= +<br> +you if you continue to surveill the network even if you are doing so<br> +on behalf of the state for the purpose of gathering information for a<br> +state's compliance initiative.<br> +<br> +So=2C don't delude yourself=2C and be happy if all that happens is your<br> +little surveillance initiative has to close its doors (or gets sued if<br> +it stays open). =3B Because that is the legal side of things. =3B T= +he<br> +extralegal stuff is far worse. =3B The community is helping you by aski= +ng<br> +you gently to close up shop and go away. It is a helpful suggestion<br> +and I believe also a fair warning=2C again=2C a shot off the bow.<br> +<br> +On the development side=2C developers are certainly responsible for<br> +doing what they can to resist this kind of surveillance activity. =3B B= +ut<br> +I have a feeling that will be a different thread which is more<br> +technical and so won't comment on it here=2C except to say it will<br> +likely involve working toward giving the user an anonymity option<br> +which can be exercised as part of any transaction.<br> +<br> +Thy Shizzle:<br> +>=3B I don't believe that at all. Analyzing information publicly<br> +>=3B available is not illegal. Chainalysis or whatever you call it would<= +br> +>=3B be likened to observing who comes and feeds birds at the park<br> +>=3B everyday. You can sit in the park and observe who feeds the birds=2C= +<br> +>=3B just as you can connect to the Bitcoin P2P network and observe the<b= +r> +>=3B blocks being formed into the chain and transactions etc. Unless<br> +>=3B there is some agreement taking place where it is specified that<br> +>=3B upon connecting to the Bitcoin P2P swarm you agree to a set of<br> +>=3B terms=2C however as every node is providing their own "=3Bentry&= +quot=3B into<br> +>=3B the P2P swarm it becomes really up to the node providing the<br> +>=3B connection to uphold and enforce the terms of the agreement. If you<= +br> +>=3B allow people to connect to you without terms of agreement=2C you<br> +>=3B cannot cry foul when they record the data that passes through. To<br= +> +>=3B say Chainalysis needs to cease is silly=2C the whole point of the<br= +> +>=3B public blockchain is for Chainalysis=2C whether it be for the<br> +>=3B verification of transactions=2C research or otherwise.<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B -----Original Message----- From: "=3Bodinn"=3B<br> +>=3B <=3Bodinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net>=3B Sent: =E2=80=8E23/=E2=80= +=8E03/=E2=80=8E2015 1:48 PM To:<br> +>=3B "=3Bbitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net"=3B<br> +>=3B <=3Bbitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>=3B Subject: Re:<b= +r> +>=3B [Bitcoin-development] Criminal complaints against "=3Bnetwork<br= +> +>=3B disruption as a service"=3B startups<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B If you (e.g. Chainalysis) or anyone else are doing surveillance on<b= +r> +>=3B the network and gathering information for later use=2C and whether o= +r<br> +>=3B not the ultimate purpose is to divulge it to other parties for<br> +>=3B compliance purposes=2C you can bet that ultimately the tables will b= +e<br> +>=3B turned on you=2C and you will be the one having your ass handed to<b= +r> +>=3B you so to speak=2C before or after you are served=2C in legal parlan= +ce.<br> +>=3B Whether or not the outcome of that is meaningful and beneficial to<b= +r> +>=3B any concerned parties and what is the upshot of it in the end<br> +>=3B depends on on what you do and just how far you decide to take your<b= +r> +>=3B ill-advised enterprise.<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B Chainalysis and similar operations would be=2C IMHO=2C well advised = +to <br> +>=3B cease operations. =3B This doesn't mean they will=2C but guess w= +hat:<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B Shot over the bow=2C folks.<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B Jan M=C3=B8ller:<br> +>=3B>=3B What we were trying to achieve was determining the flow of fun= +ds <br> +>=3B>=3B between countries by figuring out which country a transaction = +<br> +>=3B>=3B originates from. To do that with a certain accuracy you need<b= +r> +>=3B>=3B many nodes. We chose a class C IP range as we knew that bitcoi= +n<br> +>=3B>=3B core and others only connect to one node in any class C IP ran= +ge.<br> +>=3B>=3B We were not aware that breadwallet didn't follow this practice= +.<br> +>=3B>=3B Breadwallet risked getting tar-pitted=2C but that was not our<= +br> +>=3B>=3B intention and we are sorry about that.<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B Our nodes DID respond with valid blocks and merkle-blocks and = +<br> +>=3B>=3B allowed everyone connecting to track the blockchain. We did<br= +> +>=3B>=3B however not relay transactions. The 'service' bit in the versi= +on<br> +>=3B>=3B message is not meant for telling whether or how the node relay= +s<br> +>=3B>=3B transactions=2C it tells whether you can ask for block headers= + only<br> +>=3B>=3B or full blocks.<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B Many implementations enforce non standard rules for handling <= +br> +>=3B>=3B transactions=3B some nodes ignore transactions with address re= +use=2C <br> +>=3B>=3B some nodes happily forward double spends=2C and some nodes for= +ward <br> +>=3B>=3B neither blocks not transactions. We did blocks but not <br> +>=3B>=3B transactions.<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B In hindsight we should have done two things: 1. relay<br> +>=3B>=3B transactions 2. advertise address from 'foreign' nodes<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B Both would have fixed the problems that breadwallet experience= +d. <br> +>=3B>=3B My understanding is that breadwallet now has the same 'class C= +' <br> +>=3B>=3B rule as bitcoind=2C which would also fix it.<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B Getting back on the topic of this thread and whether it is<br> +>=3B>=3B illegal=2C your guess is as good as mine. I don't think it is<= +br> +>=3B>=3B illegal to log incoming connections and make statistical analy= +sis<br> +>=3B>=3B on it. That would more or less incriminate anyone who runs a<b= +r> +>=3B>=3B web-server and looks into the access log. At lease one Bitcoin= +<br> +>=3B>=3B service has been collecting IP addresses for years and given t= +hem<br> +>=3B>=3B to anyone visiting their web-site (you know who) and I believe= +<br> +>=3B>=3B that this practise is very wrong. We have no intention of givi= +ng<br> +>=3B>=3B IP addresses away to anyone=2C but we believe that you are fre= +e to<br> +>=3B>=3B make statistics on connection logs when nodes connect to you.<= +br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B On a side note: When you make many connections to the network<= +br> +>=3B>=3B you see lots of strange nodes and suspicious patterns. You can= +<br> +>=3B>=3B be certain that we were not the only ones connected to many<br= +> +>=3B>=3B nodes.<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B My takeaway from this: If nodes that do not relay transactions= + is<br> +>=3B>=3B a problem then there is stuff to fix.<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B /Jan<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B On Fri=2C Mar 13=2C 2015 at 10:48 PM=2C Mike Hearn <=3Bmike@= +plan99.net>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B wrote:<br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B That would be rather new and tricky legal territory.<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B But even putting the legal issues to one side=2C there a= +re <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B definitional issues.<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B For instance if the Chainalysis nodes started following = +the <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B protocol specs better and became just regular nodes that= +<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B happen to keep logs=2C would that still be a violation? = +If so=2C<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B what about blockchain.info? It'd be shooting ourselves i= +n the<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B foot to try and forbid block explorers given how useful = +they<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B are.<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B If someone non-maliciously runs some nodes with debug lo= +gging <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B turned on=2C and makes full system backups every night= +=2C and<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B keeps those backups for years=2C are they in violation o= +f<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B whatever pseudo-law is involved?<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B I think it's a bit early to think about these things rig= +ht<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B now. Michael Gr=C3=B8nager and Jan M=C3=B8ller have been= + Bitcoin hackers<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B for a long time. I'd be interested to know their thought= +s on<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B all of this.<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B --------------------------------------------------------= +----------------------<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B<br> +>=3B<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B <br> +Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website=2C<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Sla= +shdot <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B Media=2C is your hub for all things parallel software<br= +> +>=3B>=3B>=3B development=2C from weekly thought leadership blogs to n= +ews=2C<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B videos=2C case studies=2C tutorials and more. Take a loo= +k and join<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B the conversation now. <a href=3D"http://goparallel.sourc= +eforge.net/">http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/</a> +<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B _______________________________________________ <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B Bitcoin-development mailing list <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/= +bitcoin-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-d= +evelopment</a><br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B<br> +>=3B<br> +>=3B>=3B>=3B <br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B --------------------------------------------------------------= +----------------<br> +>=3B<br> +>=3B>=3B <br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel<br> +>=3B Website=2C sponsored<br> +>=3B>=3B by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media=2C i= +s<br> +>=3B>=3B your hub for all things parallel software development=2C from<= +br> +>=3B>=3B weekly thought leadership blogs to news=2C videos=2C case stud= +ies=2C<br> +>=3B>=3B tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now.= + <br> +>=3B>=3B <a href=3D"http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/">http://goparall= +el.sourceforge.net/</a><br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B>=3B _______________________________________________<br> +>=3B>=3B Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +>=3B>=3B Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <br> +>=3B>=3B <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoi= +n-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-develop= +ment</a><br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B <br> +>=3B --------------------------------------------------------------------= +----------<br> +>=3B<br> +>=3B <br> +Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website=2C<br> +sponsored<br> +>=3B by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media=2C is your= +<br> +>=3B hub for all things parallel software development=2C from weekly<br> +>=3B thought leadership blogs to news=2C videos=2C case studies=2C tutori= +als<br> +>=3B and more. Take a look and join the conversation now.<br> +>=3B <a href=3D"http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/">http://goparallel.sou= +rceforge.net/</a> +<br> +>=3B _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development<= +br> +>=3B mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net <br> +>=3B <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-deve= +lopment">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</= +a><br> +>=3B <br> +<br> +- -- <br> +<a href=3D"http://abis.io">http://abis.io</a> ~<br> +"=3Ba protocol concept to enable decentralization<br> +and expansion of a giving economy=2C and a new social good"=3B<br> +<a href=3D"https://keybase.io/odinn">https://keybase.io/odinn</a><br> +-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br> +<br> +iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVD6mmAAoJEGxwq/inSG8CkLUH/iWvn7kp6KW2fe5RFca1eAmH<br> +L+=3B5P+=3BkNDzMARIRt8A3CvopoQQMZx44aZ8pMdErUk+=3B78A7oeP/x+=3B= +scYEkSiXE17Iv<br> +saBWv43mO+=3BqFxgVrU7y+=3B9njwLJoywHitBymhLGisi3hv+=3BH7lfIMdPK2dL= +VThwxel<br> +bVO0Ga8Y9qDYAwtK23yEOCT7klj5mT0tG50U4HxDpIXaJj8kCnVUC2O1MdYhr1pP<br> +93cDuhBmXOg7sOLAPpdWVhgfnz0Vm8M0ZWUIK+=3B4FGzpQugWHcmdp3YUDCeczOYzD<br> +u5zVdAqvdL6qQcWkUcGfkKaAqfJH3u5F2zeQvDUEJeeEz1lWnrsXuT7cCvcp/TU=3D<br> +=3D6io6<br> +-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br> +</div> +</div> +</body> +</html> + +--_45dd4ad8-c5b7-4083-ab52-0387b89558a8_-- + + |