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| author | odinn <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net> | 2015-03-23 05:50:32 +0000 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2015-03-23 05:50:51 +0000 |
| commit | 194b2afb37568a32c09bb33bf3b75dd22d951708 (patch) | |
| tree | f005376a1984ff5def444c78eba695307ff614d4 | |
| parent | 9bccb56c280fb4242c78b33b546dc51f38992a6c (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-194b2afb37568a32c09bb33bf3b75dd22d951708.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-194b2afb37568a32c09bb33bf3b75dd22d951708.zip | |
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Criminal complaints against "network disruption as a service" startups
| -rw-r--r-- | e8/33847621848262159048b6de420fd4eebfb782 | 329 |
1 files changed, 329 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/e8/33847621848262159048b6de420fd4eebfb782 b/e8/33847621848262159048b6de420fd4eebfb782 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..90ee43435 --- /dev/null +++ b/e8/33847621848262159048b6de420fd4eebfb782 @@ -0,0 +1,329 @@ +Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] + helo=mx.sourceforge.net) + by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) + (envelope-from <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net>) id 1YZvGF-0005kK-Fv + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Mon, 23 Mar 2015 05:50:51 +0000 +Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of riseup.net + designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) + client-ip=198.252.153.129; + envelope-from=odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net; + helo=mx1.riseup.net; +Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]) + by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) + (Exim 4.76) id 1YZvGD-0008Jh-Hr + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Mon, 23 Mar 2015 05:50:51 +0000 +Received: from berryeater.riseup.net (berryeater-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.120]) + (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) + (Client CN "*.riseup.net", + Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) + by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FE39417B7; + Mon, 23 Mar 2015 05:50:43 +0000 (UTC) +Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) + (Authenticated sender: odinn.cyberguerrilla) + with ESMTPSA id 57BF640E10 +Message-ID: <550FA9A8.6050302@riseup.net> +Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 05:50:32 +0000 +From: odinn <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +To: Thy Shizzle <thyshizzle@outlook.com> +References: <COL401-EAS2273FA9CFE9B779BF339766C20D0@phx.gbl> +In-Reply-To: <COL401-EAS2273FA9CFE9B779BF339766C20D0@phx.gbl> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 +X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.6 at mx1 +X-Virus-Status: Clean +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) +X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. + See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. + -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for + sender-domain + -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, + no trust [198.252.153.129 listed in list.dnswl.org] + -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record + -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay + domain + -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record + 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, + not necessarily valid + 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid + 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay + lines +X-Headers-End: 1YZvGD-0008Jh-Hr +Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Criminal complaints against "network + disruption as a service" startups +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 +Precedence: list +List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 05:50:51 -0000 + +-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- +Hash: SHA512 + +Back to what is Chainalysis and country of their origin, so criminal +complaints against them would likely relate to violation of Swiss +laws, as is described here: +https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D978088.msg10774882#msg10774882 + +It is fairly obvious that Chainalysis is not merely doing what +blockchain.info etc. is. Let's not delude ourselves here. + +As stated, it would be advisable for such a firm to cease operations, +and it would seem that plenty of polite shots over the bow have been +given to Chainalysis, which should now fold up its operation, pack its +bags, and go back to its hole before trying to serve its masters again +in another way. Etc. + +Corporations similar to Chainalysis which are domiciled in other +countries which conduct collection of information in ways that violate +countries' laws (there are many countries and each have their own ways +of interpreting user privacy and what constitutes permissible breach +and in what circumstances) can indeed be held to legal standards that +may result in minimal or severe legal penalties. It is true that +analyzing information that is publicly available, such as that which +is in a library, is not illegal. But the act of surveillance is. +(Then there is the question of what sort of surveillance, targeted or +general, and whether it is limited to the bitcoin network or if it +moves beyond that to attempts to correlate with usernames, IDs, IPs, +and other information available on fora and apparent from services, +but I won't get into that here.) Even if you argue that the manner in +which you are performing your actions is not actually "surveillance," +or you argue that it is "legally permissible," someone else will +certainly come along and make a reasonable argument that you are +indeed engaging in illegal surveillance. They may even suggest to a +judge that you are in the process of constructing a botnet and demand +that your domains be seized, and may successfully obtain an ex parte +temporary restraining order (TRO) against Chainalysis and similar +corporations to have domain(s) seized. Any and all arguments may be +added in here, there are 196 countries in the world today - each with +their own unique laws - (maybe less by the time you read this) and a +shit-ton of possible legal arguments that can be made by creative +minds that might want to sue you if you have been surveilling people, +each different depending on where your surveillance corporation is +domiciled. There are plenty of legal processes available for people +to do exactly that. You are indeed subject to having that happen to +you if you continue to surveill the network even if you are doing so +on behalf of the state for the purpose of gathering information for a +state's compliance initiative. + +So, don't delude yourself, and be happy if all that happens is your +little surveillance initiative has to close its doors (or gets sued if +it stays open). Because that is the legal side of things. The +extralegal stuff is far worse. The community is helping you by asking +you gently to close up shop and go away. It is a helpful suggestion +and I believe also a fair warning, again, a shot off the bow. + +On the development side, developers are certainly responsible for +doing what they can to resist this kind of surveillance activity. But +I have a feeling that will be a different thread which is more +technical and so won't comment on it here, except to say it will +likely involve working toward giving the user an anonymity option +which can be exercised as part of any transaction. + +Thy Shizzle: +> I don't believe that at all. Analyzing information publicly +> available is not illegal. Chainalysis or whatever you call it would +> be likened to observing who comes and feeds birds at the park +> everyday. You can sit in the park and observe who feeds the birds, +> just as you can connect to the Bitcoin P2P network and observe the +> blocks being formed into the chain and transactions etc. Unless +> there is some agreement taking place where it is specified that +> upon connecting to the Bitcoin P2P swarm you agree to a set of +> terms, however as every node is providing their own "entry" into +> the P2P swarm it becomes really up to the node providing the +> connection to uphold and enforce the terms of the agreement. If you +> allow people to connect to you without terms of agreement, you +> cannot cry foul when they record the data that passes through. To +> say Chainalysis needs to cease is silly, the whole point of the +> public blockchain is for Chainalysis, whether it be for the +> verification of transactions, research or otherwise. +>=20 +> -----Original Message----- From: "odinn" +> <odinn.cyberguerrilla@riseup.net> Sent: =E2=80=8E23/=E2=80=8E03/=E2=80=8E= +2015 1:48 PM To: +> "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" +> <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> Subject: Re: +> [Bitcoin-development] Criminal complaints against "network +> disruption as a service" startups +>=20 +> If you (e.g. Chainalysis) or anyone else are doing surveillance on +> the network and gathering information for later use, and whether or +> not the ultimate purpose is to divulge it to other parties for +> compliance purposes, you can bet that ultimately the tables will be +> turned on you, and you will be the one having your ass handed to +> you so to speak, before or after you are served, in legal parlance. +> Whether or not the outcome of that is meaningful and beneficial to +> any concerned parties and what is the upshot of it in the end +> depends on on what you do and just how far you decide to take your +> ill-advised enterprise. +>=20 +> Chainalysis and similar operations would be, IMHO, well advised to=20 +> cease operations. This doesn't mean they will, but guess what: +>=20 +> Shot over the bow, folks. +>=20 +> Jan M=C3=B8ller: +>> What we were trying to achieve was determining the flow of funds=20 +>> between countries by figuring out which country a transaction=20 +>> originates from. To do that with a certain accuracy you need +>> many nodes. We chose a class C IP range as we knew that bitcoin +>> core and others only connect to one node in any class C IP range. +>> We were not aware that breadwallet didn't follow this practice. +>> Breadwallet risked getting tar-pitted, but that was not our +>> intention and we are sorry about that. +>=20 +>> Our nodes DID respond with valid blocks and merkle-blocks and=20 +>> allowed everyone connecting to track the blockchain. We did +>> however not relay transactions. The 'service' bit in the version +>> message is not meant for telling whether or how the node relays +>> transactions, it tells whether you can ask for block headers only +>> or full blocks. +>=20 +>> Many implementations enforce non standard rules for handling=20 +>> transactions; some nodes ignore transactions with address reuse,=20 +>> some nodes happily forward double spends, and some nodes forward=20 +>> neither blocks not transactions. We did blocks but not=20 +>> transactions. +>=20 +>> In hindsight we should have done two things: 1. relay +>> transactions 2. advertise address from 'foreign' nodes +>=20 +>> Both would have fixed the problems that breadwallet experienced.=20 +>> My understanding is that breadwallet now has the same 'class C'=20 +>> rule as bitcoind, which would also fix it. +>=20 +>> Getting back on the topic of this thread and whether it is +>> illegal, your guess is as good as mine. I don't think it is +>> illegal to log incoming connections and make statistical analysis +>> on it. That would more or less incriminate anyone who runs a +>> web-server and looks into the access log. At lease one Bitcoin +>> service has been collecting IP addresses for years and given them +>> to anyone visiting their web-site (you know who) and I believe +>> that this practise is very wrong. We have no intention of giving +>> IP addresses away to anyone, but we believe that you are free to +>> make statistics on connection logs when nodes connect to you. +>=20 +>> On a side note: When you make many connections to the network +>> you see lots of strange nodes and suspicious patterns. You can +>> be certain that we were not the only ones connected to many +>> nodes. +>=20 +>> My takeaway from this: If nodes that do not relay transactions is +>> a problem then there is stuff to fix. +>=20 +>> /Jan +>=20 +>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>=20 +>> wrote: +>=20 +>>> That would be rather new and tricky legal territory. +>>>=20 +>>> But even putting the legal issues to one side, there are=20 +>>> definitional issues. +>>>=20 +>>> For instance if the Chainalysis nodes started following the=20 +>>> protocol specs better and became just regular nodes that +>>> happen to keep logs, would that still be a violation? If so, +>>> what about blockchain.info? It'd be shooting ourselves in the +>>> foot to try and forbid block explorers given how useful they +>>> are. +>>>=20 +>>> If someone non-maliciously runs some nodes with debug logging=20 +>>> turned on, and makes full system backups every night, and +>>> keeps those backups for years, are they in violation of +>>> whatever pseudo-law is involved? +>>>=20 +>>> I think it's a bit early to think about these things right +>>> now. Michael Gr=C3=B8nager and Jan M=C3=B8ller have been Bitcoin hack= +ers +>>> for a long time. I'd be interested to know their thoughts on +>>> all of this. +>>>=20 +>>>=20 +>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------= +--------- +>>> +>>> +> +>>>=20 +Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, +>>> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot=20 +>>> Media, is your hub for all things parallel software +>>> development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, +>>> videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join +>>> the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/=20 +>>> _______________________________________________=20 +>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list=20 +>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 +>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>>> +>>> +> +>>>=20 +>=20 +>=20 +>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------- +> +>>=20 +>=20 +> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel +> Website, sponsored +>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is +>> your hub for all things parallel software development, from +>> weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, +>> tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now.=20 +>> http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ +>=20 +>=20 +>=20 +>> _______________________________________________ +>> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 +>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>=20 +>=20 +>=20 +> -----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +> +>=20 +Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, +sponsored +> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your +> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly +> thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials +> and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. +> http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/=20 +> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development +> mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20 +> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>=20 + +- --=20 +http://abis.io ~ +"a protocol concept to enable decentralization +and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good" +https://keybase.io/odinn +-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- + +iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJVD6mmAAoJEGxwq/inSG8CkLUH/iWvn7kp6KW2fe5RFca1eAmH +L+5P+kNDzMARIRt8A3CvopoQQMZx44aZ8pMdErUk+78A7oeP/x+scYEkSiXE17Iv +saBWv43mO+qFxgVrU7y+9njwLJoywHitBymhLGisi3hv+H7lfIMdPK2dLVThwxel +bVO0Ga8Y9qDYAwtK23yEOCT7klj5mT0tG50U4HxDpIXaJj8kCnVUC2O1MdYhr1pP +93cDuhBmXOg7sOLAPpdWVhgfnz0Vm8M0ZWUIK+4FGzpQugWHcmdp3YUDCeczOYzD +u5zVdAqvdL6qQcWkUcGfkKaAqfJH3u5F2zeQvDUEJeeEz1lWnrsXuT7cCvcp/TU=3D +=3D6io6 +-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- + + |