From: Max M (maxmcorp@worldonline.dk)
Date: Tue Jun 19 2001 - 11:37:07 MDT
> From: natashavita@earthlink.net
> With all due respect, from time to time you post to this list
> with a commentary revealing disdain for what you consider to be a
> lifestyle and personality trait of others who happen to be on
> this list. Unfortunately, it seems that such is raked together
> like a pile of withering leaves. While you may think your
> particular focus is pursued with a wide-angle lens the shutter
> may be closed.
Natasha I am afraid that you misunderstand Waldemar completely.
The way this debate is going is a pretty blatant example of a rather subtle
culture clash. I have seen it before on the list and believe that it stems
from differences in the philosophies of the educational systems of the
german vs. the anglosaxian traditions.
It's not different opinions that is the problem here, but two schools of
thought that is clashing.
The German philosophy is much about proces and understanding of processes.
Especially here in Scandinavia there is a very strong tradition of this line
of thinking.
A Dane called Grundtvig started a cultural movement in Denmark, with a
school of thought that people should keep improving througout life, and a
lot of schools popped up in Denmark based on this simple ideal (Højskoler -
translates directly to "high-school" but has completly different meaning).
The goal was improvement, the mean was discussion and debate.
The Anglo-Saxian philosophy is much about concrete knowledge and results.
Something like SAT scores would never happen in Scandinavia because we don't
belive that it has any relevance.
A typcal Dane would say SAT's meassures how well somebody remembers stuff,
but nothing about the more "soft" qualities like understanding, social
function, holism etc. So it's simply not used.
When Waldemar makes a post like the above it is most likely not meant as a
solution to anything, it is not meant as pree-cooked ideal it is NOT meant
to be FACTS. It's not nessecarily even meant to be his real view on things.
Withot having talked to Waldemar about it I believe that it is an attempt to
start a process. In the great German tradition. Sometimes he says what he
means, sometimes he borders as the Devils Advocate but all with the goal of
starting and improving a process.
It happens so often on the list. Some European tries to open a debate, and
the Americans bombards them with facts and opinions. Case closed.
Then the European seems like a pinko-commi-bastard to the Yanks, and the
Yanks seems like uneducated-narrowminded-airheads to the European.
What the poor European is trying to do is just to start a process where we
can all go through to the other side, all sharing a better understanding of
the problem. Without nessecarily reaching a conclusion or a consenus.
To quote Hal: "Propaganda is the last resort of a failed ideology. Better
to let the
facts speak for themselves."
Well I'm sorry to say that in my culture this won't work. We have to get
everybody through the process of understanding the problems and solutions.
Presenting people with facts and conclusions just won't cut it in my part of
the world.
Without the public debate, where the Transhumanist ideas and ideals are
tried out for size in the great big memepool, Transhumanism will never stand
a chance in Europe.
As it is right now the statist and the econerds owns the debate. You
probably don't feel that as much in the states as we do here in Europe. But
believe me. The Transhumanist ideals are so far removed from the public
debate that you won't belive it.
For heavens sake. Some people are still discussing the idea of the free
market. And many don't like it.
Remember that the Europeans on this list is the ones most likely to think
like you Anglo-Saxian do. So if we won't get persuaded by facts and
conclusions alone, just imagine how the more left winged and reactionary
parts of Europe will react.
The above is maybe my opinion. Debate anyone?
;-)
Regards Max M Rasmussen
Max M. W. Rasmussen, Denmark. New Media Director
private: maxmcorp@worldonline.dk work: maxm@normik.dk
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