Creating communities

Nina Alli, Minerva Castellanos, Todd Kuiken (DrToddOliver, DC_BHV, MineCastellanos)

TK: I want to talk about building communities. We need better conversations about science and technology. We will listen to both of their origin stories. We'll have some questions we'll battle around between the three of us.

NA: Defcon is the world's largest hacker conference. They have a biohacking village. There's a lot of security problems in this space, including vulnerable medical devices that are even implanted into patients. The patients are suffering from these problems.

TK: You said 10,000 people went through the biohacking village. How did you grow to that number of people?

NA: Well, I am really loud. We split the village into a medical device village where we had everything networked so different vendors could network their stuff. We had biohackers come in and they said yeah we're cool and we're going to break into your shit. And then we had a room for DIYbio and biohackers to talk. We also had a hands-on section in another room. I went around the world talking to anybody that would listen and give as many talks as I could over a year. I said, this is a big deal. Does anyone do any reverse engineering on this? You're not training the physician, the engineer, or the patient about what's inside them. And that's another huge issue.

TK: I'd like to hear from Minerva about her experiences in Mexico and if you could tell us about the spaces you're trying to build and why you wanted to actually do that.

NA: We have something with the FDA where we have medical device manufacturers bring their devices to defcon and let people break the equipment. We want people to do responsible disclosure before they spread rumors about what they have found. They have a conversation with the manufacturers right there and help them fix it. How can we integrate ourselves into the corporate world, while maintaining our autonomy.

TK: Let's talk about policy and regulations. Minerva, what issues do you run into building this type of community in Mexico? What has been the reaction from the general public and the people you're trying to engage with?

NA: I think this country is run by fear. They are so afraid that they would rather excommunicate us than have a conversation with us. This is fine, except it's not, because we're doing really beautiful work that is better than what is available right now. We're letting people own their own data and self-assess. This creates a point of fear in the medical community, because now they don't have the sense of control. The governance here is self-governance. I have two masters degrees and I still can't get into a level 2 lab for one of the projects I'm working on. This makes it really hard to try ideas, it's not just a matter of money, it's also about having credentials. That's a point of concern for all of us in the biohacking community. I had been working on a microfluidics project for about 2 years. I had gone to different academic and military campuses and asking them to help us. I've done VC work, I've seen other people doing the same, and then they sigh and say yeah it's dangerous. I said, of course, that's why it's important. Let people run with their ideas. We have to help people do this. It's a microfluidic device for at-home STD detection. It's level 2, because it's chlymidia and gonnorhea. They are afraid of it getting out and doing these other things. The alternative, though, is me setting up a lab at home since I can't get one, so where's the fear really happening?

TK: I've been working in diybio for about 10 years. Just the other week, we had 15 community labs go to BUGGS. We had a 3 day workshop, basically a training workshop around biosafety and biosecurity. My sense from that is that they were actually helping us and willing to help us actually, enable them to do that kind of work. There are certain things you could do in order to do that work safely and responsible, but there isn't any necessary credentials or reasons why you shouldn't be able to do that.

NA: I have gone to a few different level 2 facilities. They also say, it's $3,000/month. I can't make a prototype to make VC funding, and nobody is letting me into the lab. So what's the means to my end? It's a vicious cycle. How can we get funding? Why can't my idea make it? So based on international laws and things like that, we're here suffering. The United States is-- healthcare is one of the largest points of our GDP. We're lacking results here, because we're not willing to try other things.

TK: When I got into diybio, there were only 3 community labs. We have since visited 30 just in the last year, globally. One of the interesting things we found, particularly in Europe, is that a lot of the spaces are getting support from the governments even at the local level but sometimes at the national level for funding or providing space. We're not seeing that in the United States, though.

NA: Because they started to decriminalize hacking. Those other governments are fine with it. They want to move forward. The United States still considers this frightening.

TK: If you're getting that kind of support, are you no longer biohackers? Should you strive for support, or independence? Are you reluctant when the support is formalized?

MC: We really need formal recognition from existing institutions. They are more interested in innovation and outreach. It's important to gain support from them.