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From: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:08:10 +0200
Message-ID: <CACkWPs_ughWg-uRrWEWu_EeW8Ksvq1+aLtCvcu-NyVA=4=bUvg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Lucas Ontivero <lucasontivero@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 John Carvalho <john@synonym.to>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A proposal for Full RBF to not exclude Zero Conf
 use case
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This would not effect optinrbf only fullRBF

On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 16:00 Lucas Ontivero <lucasontivero@gmail.com> wrote:

> Some wallets like Electrum would be affected by that because they use RBF
> to batch transactions so, outputs cannot be exactly the same as before.
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 10:09 AM Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> I dont think there was anything technical with the implementation and as
>> far as I can tell this is well developed and ready.
>>
>> The reasons I can find for not being adopted are listed here -
>> https://bitcoincore.org/en/faq/optin_rbf/ under - Why not
>> First-seen-safe Replace-by-fee
>>
>>  Those reasons do not seem pertinent here - given OptinRBF already exists
>> as an option and the added benefit of continuing to be able to support
>> 0-conf.
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Daniel Lipshitz
>> GAP600| www.gap600.com
>> Phone: +44 113 4900 117
>> Skype: daniellipshitz123
>> Twitter: @daniellipshitz
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:59 AM John Carvalho <john@synonym.to> wrote:
>>
>>> Why wasn't this solution put in place back then? Are there problems with
>>> the design?
>>>
>>> While I still think there are unhealthy side-effects of Full-RBF (like
>>> more doublespending at unknowing merchants, after years of FSS protection)
>>> I think discussion of this FSS-RBF feature is worth considering.
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Carvalho
>>> CEO, Synonym.to <http://synonym.to/>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 8:09 AM Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you for bringing that to my attention, apologies for not being
>>>> aware of it.
>>>>
>>>> First-seen-safe replace-by-fee as detailed here
>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html
>>>> by Peter Todd  seems to be a very suitable option and route
>>>> which balances FullRBF while retaining  the significant 0-conf use case.
>>>>
>>>> This would seem like a good way forward.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 6:20 AM Yuval Kogman <nothingmuch@woobling.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
> --
________________________________
Daniel Lipshitz
GAP600
www.Gap600.com

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<div dir=3D"auto">This would not effect optinrbf only fullRBF=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On =
Tue, 13 Dec 2022 at 16:00 Lucas Ontivero &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lucasontiver=
o@gmail.com">lucasontivero@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Some wallets like Electrum woul=
d be affected by that because they use RBF to batch transactions so, output=
s cannot be exactly the same as before.<br></div></div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 10:09 AM Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-d=
ev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_=
blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I dont think there was anything tec=
hnical with the implementation and as far as I can tell this is well develo=
ped and ready.<div><br></div><div>The reasons I can find for not being adop=
ted are listed here -=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitcoincore.org/en/faq/optin_=
rbf/" target=3D"_blank">https://bitcoincore.org/en/faq/optin_rbf/</a> under=
 - Why not First-seen-safe Replace-by-fee=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0Those reasons do not seem pertinent=C2=A0here - given OptinRBF alread=
y exists as an option and the added benefit of continuing=C2=A0to be able t=
o support 0-conf.</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">___________=
_____________________</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Daniel Lipshitz=
</font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D=
"tahoma, sans-serif">GAP600|=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.gap600.com/" target=
=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</a></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Phone:=C2=A0</font><span=
 style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">+44 113 4900 117<=
/span></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"=
tahoma, sans-serif">Skype: daniellipshitz123</font></div><div style=3D"font=
-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Twitter: @=
daniellipshitz</font></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, =
Dec 13, 2022 at 11:59 AM John Carvalho &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:john@synonym.t=
o" target=3D"_blank">john@synonym.to</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Why wasn&#39;t this so=
lution put in=C2=A0place back then? Are there problems with the design?<div=
><br></div><div>While I still think there are unhealthy side-effects of Ful=
l-RBF (like more doublespending at unknowing=C2=A0merchants, after years of=
 FSS protection) I think discussion of this FSS-RBF feature is worth consid=
ering.</div><div><br clear=3D"all"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">--</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34=
)"><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir=3D"ltr">John Car=
valho</div><div dir=3D"ltr">CEO,=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://synonym.to/" style=
=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">Synonym.to</a><br><div><font si=
ze=3D"1"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 1=
3, 2022 at 8:09 AM Daniel Lipshitz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniel@gap600.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">daniel@gap600.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you for bringing=
 that to my attention, apologies for not being aware of it.<div><br></div><=
div>First-seen-safe replace-by-fee as detailed here=C2=A0<a href=3D"https:/=
/lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/piperma=
il/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html</a>=C2=A0 by Peter Todd=C2=A0<span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>seems to be a very suit=
able option and route which=C2=A0balances FullRBF while retaining=C2=A0 the=
 significant=C2=A00-conf use case.</div><div><br></div><div>This would seem=
 like a good way forward.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-=
size:12.8px">________________________________</div><div style=3D"font-size:=
12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 6:20 AM Yuval Kogman &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:nothingmuch@woobling.org" target=3D"_blank">nothingmuch@woobli=
ng.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/20=
15-May/008248.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linu=
xfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-May/008248.html</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">________________________________<br>Dani=
el Lipshitz<br>GAP600<br><a href=3D"http://www.Gap600.com">www.Gap600.com</=
a><br><br><br></div>

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