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<bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal to address Bitcoin malware
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Transaction initiated and signed on device #1. Transaction is sent to devic=
e #2. On device #2 you verify the transaction and if authorized you provide=
the second signature.
Brian Erdelyi
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 2, 2015, at 5:09 PM, Pedro Worcel <pedro@worcel.com> wrote:
>=20
> Where would you verify that?
>=20
>> On 2/3/2015 10:03 AM, Brian Erdelyi wrote:
>> Joel,
>>=20
>> The mobile device should show you the details of the transaction (i.e. am=
ount and bitcoin address). Once you verify this is the intended recipient a=
nd amount you approve it on the mobile device. If the address was replaced,=
you should see this on the mobile device as it won=E2=80=99t match where yo=
u were intending to send it. You can then not provide the second signature.=
>>=20
>> Brian Erdelyi
>>=20
>>> On Feb 2, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Joel Joonatan Kaartinen <joel.kaartinen@gmai=
l.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> If the attacker has your desktop computer but not the mobile that's acti=
ng as an independent second factor, how are you then supposed to be able to t=
ell you're not signing the correct transaction on the mobile? If the address=
was replaced with the attacker's address, it'll look like everything is ok.=
>>>=20
>>> - Joel
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 9:58 PM, Brian Erdelyi <brian.erdelyi@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>>=20
>>>> > Confusing or not, the reliance on multiple signatures as offering gre=
ater security than single relies on the independence of multiple secrets. If=
the secrets cannot be shown to retain independence in the envisioned threat=
scenario (e.g. a user's compromised operating system) then the benefit redu=
ces to making the exploit more difficult to write, which, once written, redu=
ces to no benefit. Yet the user still suffers the r=
educed utility arising from greater complexity, while being led to believe i=
n a false promise.
>>>>=20
>>>> Just trying to make sure I understand what you=E2=80=99re saying. Are y=
ou eluding to that if two of the three private keys get compromised there is=
no gain in security? Although the likelihood of this occurring is lower, i=
t is possible.
>>>>=20
>>>> As more malware targets bitcoins I think the utility is evident. Given=
how final Bitcoin transactions are, I think it=E2=80=99s worth trying to fi=
nd methods to help verify those transactions (if a user deems it to be high-=
risk enough) before the transaction is completed. The balance is trying to d=
evise something that users do not find too burdensome.
>>>>=20
>>>> Brian Erdelyi
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
>>>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
>>>> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is=
your
>>>> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
>>>> leadership blogs to news, videos, case stud=
ies, tutorials and more. Take a
>>>> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
>> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is y=
our
>> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
>> leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a=
>> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
> sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is yo=
ur
> hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
> leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a=
> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
--Apple-Mail-80AFB902-E20B-42AF-BC1F-4DB1B16179B9
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charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Transaction initiated and signed on de=
vice #1. Transaction is sent to device #2. On device #2 you veri=
fy the transaction and if authorized you provide the second signature.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Brian Erdelyi<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>O=
n Feb 2, 2015, at 5:09 PM, Pedro Worcel <<a href=3D"mailto:pedro@worcel.c=
om">pedro@worcel.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div>
=20
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" http-equiv=3D"Conten=
t-Type">
=20
=20
Where would you verify that?<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2/3/2015 10:03 AM, Brian Erdelyi
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:CB45FC36-3B3E-486D-95FE-596D7380C3D2@gmail.com" t=
ype=3D"cite">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html;
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
Joel,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">The mobile device should show you the details of the
transaction (i.e. amount and bitcoin address). Once you verify=
this is the intended recipient and amount you approve it on the
mobile device. If the address was replaced, you should see thi=
s
on the mobile device as it won=E2=80=99t match where you were intend=
ing
to send it. You can then not provide the second signature.</di=
v>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Brian Erdelyi</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Feb 2, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Joel Joonatan
Kaartinen <<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:joel.=
kaartinen@gmail.com" class=3D"">joel.kaartinen@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">If the attacker has your desktop
computer but not the mobile that's acting as an
independent second factor, how are you then supposed to
be able to tell you're not signing the correct
transaction on the mobile? If the address was replaced
with the attacker's address, it'll look like everything
is ok.
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">- Joel<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 9:58
PM, Brian Erdelyi <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a m=
oz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:brian.erdelyi@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank" class=3D"">brian.erdelyi@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><br class=3D=
"">
> Confusing or not, the reliance on
multiple signatures as offering greater
security than single relies on the
independence of multiple secrets. If the
secrets cannot be shown to retain independence
in the envisioned threat scenario (e.g. a
user's compromised operating system) then the
benefit reduces to making the exploit more
difficult to write, which, once written,
reduces to no benefit. Yet the user still
suffers the reduced utility arising from
greater complexity, while being led to believe
in a false promise.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>Just trying to make sure I understand
what you=E2=80=99re saying. Are you eluding to=
that if
two of the three private keys get compromised
there is no gain in security? Although the
likelihood of this occurring is lower, it is
possible.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As more malware targets bitcoins I think the
utility is evident. Given how final Bitcoin
transactions are, I think it=E2=80=99s worth trying t=
o
find methods to help verify those transactions
(if a user deems it to be high-risk enough)
before the transaction is completed. The
balance is trying to devise something that users
do not find too burdensome.<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"h5"><br class=3D"">
Brian Erdelyi<br class=3D"">
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--<br class=3D"">
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming.
The Go Parallel Website,<br class=3D"">
sponsored by Intel and developed in
partnership with Slashdot Media, is your<br clas=
s=3D"">
hub for all things parallel software
development, from weekly thought<br class=3D"">
leadership blogs to news, videos, case
studies, tutorials and more. Take a<br class=3D"=
">
look and join the conversation now. <a moz-do-no=
t-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/" target=3D"_blank=
" class=3D"">http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/</a><br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:Bitco=
in-development@lists.sourceforge.net" class=3D"">Bitcoin-development@lists.s=
ourceforge.net</a><br class=3D"">
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"https://list=
s.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development" target=3D"_blank" clas=
s=3D"">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><=
br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap=3D"">-------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your=
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D=
"http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/">http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/</a><=
/pre>
<br>
<fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lis=
ts.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lis=
ts/listinfo/bitcoin-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinf=
o/bitcoin-development</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
=20
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>--------------------=
----------------------------------------------------------</span><br><span>D=
ive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,</span><=
br><span>sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media=
, is your</span><br><span>hub for all things parallel software development, f=
rom weekly thought</span><br><span>leadership blogs to news, videos, case st=
udies, tutorials and more. Take a</span><br><span>look and join the conversa=
tion now. <a href=3D"http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/">http://goparallel.s=
ourceforge.net/</a></span></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Bitcoi=
n-development mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-develop=
ment@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a></s=
pan><br><span><a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoi=
n-development">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developm=
ent</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=
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