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Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 14:09:22 +0000 (UTC)
From: Vali Zero <valizero@yahoo.ro>
Reply-To: Vali Zero <valizero@yahoo.ro>
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Subject: [bitcoin-dev] =?utf-8?q?R=C4=83spuns=3A__Personal_opinion_on_the_?=
 =?utf-8?q?fee_market_from_a_worried_local_trader?=
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------=_Part_4948848_1138682708.1438178962048
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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 I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let me rep=
hrase it for you,
People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin transa=
ctions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees that establi=
sh the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin transactions. The p=
eople are free to use they money for whatever they like, but you should und=
erstand that Bitcoin transactions are not free.
I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would be th=
e first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam or gamble, but =
they would have to pay for it.
When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee market, th=
ey would be free to use any altcoin they want.

Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more important players =
will remain, those that need it the most. The other players are free to use=
 whatever altcoin they wish.

     =C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail.c=
om> a scris:
  =20

 "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts.=C2=A0The pe=
ople that actually need Bitcoin would remain."

so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don't need =
Bitcoin.
Who are you to say what people need to use money for?This statement goes ag=
ainst the freedom of decentralization and financial freedom Bitcoin should =
be able to provide.
It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit, and that re=
quires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's simple physics,=
 other time wait times will become unbearable for those not willing to pay =
the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean bitcoins isn't useful, an=
d if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless.



http://twitter.com/gubatron

On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

Hello,

I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees would scare =
Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferring bank transfers or ot=
her payment methods. This does not make sense for me. If some users leave, =
then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down and so do the fees. The othe=
rs remain.

Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand for bitcoi=
n transactions and the available supply (given by the block size). The fee =
is the price that finds this equilibrium.

If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the spammers, =
probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low a=
mounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin would remain.

Please allow this fee market to form...

In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run Bitcoin co=
de that increases the block size and will do my best to tell everyone I kno=
w not to upgrade towards running such code. If Bitcoin succombs to the free=
 stuff army, I will sell all the coins and leave. Nothing is for free.

I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards expressi=
ng my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader, computer engineer, wit=
h a reasonable understanding of free markets. And I'm running only one full=
 node.

Kind regards,
Valentin


_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev





  
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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He=
lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:16px"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_15868"><span></span></d=
iv><div>  I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. L=
et me rephrase it for you,</div><div><br></div><div>People tipping, buying =
0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin transactions *more* than the =
rest of the people will afford the fees that establish the equilibrium betw=
een demand and supply of Bitcoin transactions. The people are free to use t=
hey money for whatever they like, but you should understand that Bitcoin tr=
ansactions are not free.</div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I was merely =
attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would be the first ones =
that would go away. They would be free to spam or gamble, but they would ha=
ve to pay for it.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">When a c=
ategory of users would get priced out because of the fee market, they would=
 be free to use any altcoin they want.<br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_143=
8174338151_20766" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_14381743381=
51_20765" dir=3D"ltr">Please understand that not everyone will leave. The m=
ore important players will remain, those that need it the most. The other p=
layers are free to use whatever altcoin they wish.</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_1_1438174338151_20764" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_143=
8174338151_16267" class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br></div><div style=3D"display: =
block;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16260" class=3D"yahoo_quoted"> <di=
v id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16259" style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNe=
ue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size:=
 16px;"> <div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16258" style=3D"font-family:=
 HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif=
; font-size: 16px;"> <div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16266" dir=3D"lt=
r"> <font id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16265" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"=
> =C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon &lt;gubatron@gmail.c=
om&gt; a scris:<br> </font> </div>  <br><br> <div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_143817=
4338151_16257" class=3D"y_msg_container"><div id=3D"yiv4231441391"><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16256"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151=
_16255" dir=3D"ltr">"<span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16261" style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, A=
rial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:16px;">the gamblers and perhaps=
 people transacting very low amounts.&nbsp;</span><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_=
1438174338151_16262" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:HelveticaNeue, '=
Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:16=
px;">The people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."<br clear=3D"none"=
><br clear=3D"none">so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers =
actually don't need Bitcoin.<br clear=3D"none">Who are you to say what peop=
le need to use money for?</span><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16264=
"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16263" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);f=
ont-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grand=
e', sans-serif;font-size:16px;">This statement goes against the freedom of =
decentralization and financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to provide.</=
span></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20498"><span id=3D"yui_3_1=
6_0_1_1438174338151_20667" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:HelveticaN=
eue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-s=
ize:16px;"><br clear=3D"none">It's an open network and it will be used as m=
ost users see fit, and that requires a blocksize increase wether you like i=
t or not, it's simple physics, other time wait times will become unbearable=
 for those not willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only =
mean bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless.<br=
 clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></span></div></div><d=
iv id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16275" class=3D"yiv4231441391gmail_extr=
a"><br clear=3D"all"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20233"><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20232" class=3D"yiv4231441391gmail_signature=
"><a id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20231" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect=
" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://twitter.com/gubatron">http://twitter.com=
/gubatron</a><br clear=3D"none"></div></div>
<br clear=3D"none"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16274" class=3D"yi=
v4231441391gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitc=
oin-dev <span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20769" dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20768" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymail=
to=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfo=
undation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote id=3D"yui_=
3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16273" class=3D"yiv4231441391gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=
=3D"yiv4231441391yqt3541122396" id=3D"yiv4231441391yqt01221"><div id=3D"yui=
_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16272"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16271"=
 style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helve=
tica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><di=
v id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16270" dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<br clear=3D"no=
ne"><br clear=3D"none">I have been reading an argument saying that paying h=
igher fees would scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferri=
ng bank transfers or other payment methods. This does not make sense for me=
. If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down and s=
o do the fees. The others remain.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Fee =
market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand for bitcoin tr=
ansactions and the available supply (given by the block size). The fee is t=
he price that finds this equilibrium.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">=
If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the spammers, =
probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low a=
mounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin would remain.<br clear=3D"non=
e"><br clear=3D"none">Please allow this fee market to form...<br clear=3D"n=
one"><br clear=3D"none">In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will =
refuse to run Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my bes=
t to tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code. If Bitc=
oin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the coins and leave. N=
othing is for free.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">I apologize for an=
y exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards expressing my opinion here=
. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader, computer engineer, with a reasonable und=
erstanding of free markets. And I'm running only one full node.<br clear=3D=
"none"><br clear=3D"none">Kind regards,<br clear=3D"none">Valentin<br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div><br clear=3D"none">___=
____________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linu=
xfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfo=
undation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br clear=3D"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://lists.=
linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none"></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div>=
<br><br></div>  </div> </div>  </div></div></body></html>
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