path: root/ec/6233c8be0a5e508a03975a9e3fc5e895cf272a

Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191]
	helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
	by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <bob_bitcoin@mcelrath.org>) id 1YrROG-0001Os-Gx
	for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Sun, 10 May 2015 13:35:32 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of mcelrath.org
	designates 50.31.3.130 as permitted sender)
	client-ip=50.31.3.130; envelope-from=bob_bitcoin@mcelrath.org;
	helo=mcelrath.org; 
Received: from moya.mcelrath.org ([50.31.3.130] helo=mcelrath.org)
	by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256)
	(Exim 4.76) id 1YrROE-0001xt-TO
	for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Sun, 10 May 2015 13:35:32 +0000
Received: from mcelrath.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
	by mcelrath.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-9.4) with ESMTP id t4ADZPb7019006
	(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT)
	for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
	Sun, 10 May 2015 13:35:25 GMT
Received: (from mcelrath@localhost)
	by mcelrath.org (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id t4ADZPOf019005
	for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Sun, 10 May 2015 13:35:25 GMT
X-Authentication-Warning: mcelrath.org: mcelrath set sender to
	bob_bitcoin@mcelrath.org using -f
Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 13:35:25 +0000
From: Bob McElrath <bob_bitcoin@mcelrath.org>
To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Message-ID: <20150510133525.GD6182@mcelrath.org>
References: <CANe1mWzBy8-C+CWfwaOLxJ2wokjy8ytQUh2TkRY_Ummn1BpPzw@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;
	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <CANe1mWzBy8-C+CWfwaOLxJ2wokjy8ytQUh2TkRY_Ummn1BpPzw@mail.gmail.com>
User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android
X-UID: 21966
X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
	See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
	-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
	sender-domain
	-0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS          SPF: HELO matches SPF record
	-0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay
	domain
	-0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
	1.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
	0.0 T_REMOTE_IMAGE         Message contains an external image
X-Headers-End: 1YrROE-0001xt-TO
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] A suggestion for reducing the size of
 the	UTXO database
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 13:35:32 -0000


--XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="huq684BweRXVnRxX"
Content-Disposition: inline


--huq684BweRXVnRxX
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

This is my biggest headache with practical bitcoin usage. I'd love to hear it if
anyone has any clever solutions to the wallet/utxo locked problem. Spending
unconfirmed outputs really requires a different security model on the part of
the receiver than #confirmations, but isn't inherently bad if the receiver has a
better security model and knows how to compute the probability that an
unconfirmed-spend will get confirmed. Of course the bigger problem is wallet
software that refuses to spend unconfirmed outputs.

I've thought a bit about a fork/merge design: if the change were computed by the
network instead of the submitter, two transactions having the same change
address and a common input could be straightforwardly merged or split (in a
reorg), where with bitcoin currently it would be considered a double-spend.  Of
course that has big privacy implications since it directly exposes the change
address, and is a hard fork, but is much closer to what people expect of a
debit-based "account" in traditional banking.

The fact of the matter is that having numerous sequential debits on an account
is an extremely common use case, and bitcoin is obtuse in this respect.

On May 9, 2015 1:09:32 PM EDT, Jim Phillips <jim@ergophobia.org> wrote:
>Forgive me if this idea has been suggested before, but I made this
>suggestion on reddit and I got some feedback recommending I also bring
>it
>to this list -- so here goes.
>
>I wonder if there isn't perhaps a simpler way of dealing with UTXO
>growth.
>What if, rather than deal with the issue at the protocol level, we deal
>with it at the source of the problem -- the wallets. Right now, the
>typical
>wallet selects only the minimum number of unspent outputs when building
>a
>transaction. The goal is to keep the transaction size to a minimum so
>that
>the fee stays low. Consequently, lots of unspent outputs just don't get
>used, and are left lying around until some point in the future.
>
>What if we started designing wallets to consolidate unspent outputs?
>When
>selecting unspent outputs for a transaction, rather than choosing just
>the
>minimum number from a particular address, why not select them ALL? Take
>all
>of the UTXOs from a particular address or wallet, send however much
>needs
>to be spent to the payee, and send the rest back to the same address or
>a
>change address as a single output? Through this method, we should wind
>up
>shrinking the UTXO database over time rather than growing it with each
>transaction. Obviously, as Bitcoin gains wider adoption, the UTXO
>database
>will grow, simply because there are 7 billion people in the world, and
>eventually a good percentage of them will have one or more wallets with
>spendable bitcoin. But this idea could limit the growth at least.
>
>The vast majority of users are running one of a handful of different
>wallet
>apps: Core, Electrum; Armory; Mycelium; Breadwallet; Coinbase; Circle;
>Blockchain.info; and maybe a few others. The developers of all these
>wallets have a vested interest in the continued usefulness of Bitcoin,
>and
>so should not be opposed to changing their UTXO selection algorithms to
>one
>that reduces the UTXO database instead of growing it.
>
>>From the miners perspective, even though these types of transactions
>would
>be larger, the fee could stay low. Miners actually benefit from them in
>that it reduces the amount of storage they need to dedicate to holding
>the
>UTXO. So miners are incentivized to mine these types of transactions
>with a
>higher priority despite a low fee.
>
>Relays could also get in on the action and enforce this type of
>behavior by
>refusing to relay or deprioritizing the relay of transactions that
>don't
>use all of the available UTXOs from the addresses used as inputs.
>Relays
>are not only the ones who benefit the most from a reduction of the UTXO
>database, they're also in the best position to promote good behavior.
>
>--
>*James G. Phillips IV*
><https://plus.google.com/u/0/113107039501292625391/posts>
>
>*"Don't bunt. Aim out of the ball park. Aim for the company of
>immortals."
>-- David Ogilvy*
>
>*This message was created with 100% recycled electrons. Please think
>twice
>before printing.*
>
>
>!DSPAM:554e4e5450787476022393!
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>One dashboard for servers and applications across
>Physical-Virtual-Cloud 
>Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable
>Insights
>Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>
>!DSPAM:554e4e5450787476022393!
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Bitcoin-development mailing list
>Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>!DSPAM:554e4e5450787476022393!

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

--huq684BweRXVnRxX
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body>This is my biggest headache with practical bitcoin=
 usage. I&#39;d love to hear it if anyone has any clever solutions to the w=
allet/utxo locked problem. Spending unconfirmed outputs really requires a d=
ifferent security model on the part of the receiver than #confirmations, bu=
t isn&#39;t inherently bad if the receiver has a better security model and =
knows how to compute the probability that an unconfirmed-spend will get con=
firmed. Of course the bigger problem is wallet software that refuses to spe=
nd unconfirmed outputs.<br>
<br>
I&#39;ve thought a bit about a fork/merge design: if the change were comput=
ed by the network instead of the submitter, two transactions having the sam=
e change address could be straightforwardly merged or split (in a reorg). O=
f course that has big privacy implications and is pretty far from bitcoin&#=
39;s design, but is much closer to what people expect of a debit-based &quo=
t;account&quot; in traditional banking.<br>
<br>
The fact of the matter is that having numerous sequential debits on an acco=
unt is an extremely common use case, and bitcoin is obtuse in this respect.=
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On May 9, 2015 1:09:32 PM EDT, Jim Phill=
ips &lt;jim@ergophobia.org&gt; wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Forgive me if this idea has been suggested before, bu=
t I made this suggestion on reddit and I got some feedback recommending I a=
lso bring it to this list -- so here goes.</div><div><br /></div><div>I won=
der if there isn&#39;t perhaps a simpler way of dealing with UTXO growth. W=
hat if, rather than deal with the issue at the protocol level, we deal with=
 it at the source of the problem -- the wallets. Right now, the typical wal=
let selects only the minimum number of unspent outputs when building a tran=
saction. The goal is to keep the transaction size to a minimum so that the =
fee stays low. Consequently, lots of unspent outputs just don&#39;t get use=
d, and are left lying around until some point in the future.</div><div><br =
/></div><div>What if we started designing wallets to consolidate unspent ou=
tputs? When selecting unspent outputs for a transaction, rather than choosi=
ng just the minimum number from a particular address, why not select them A=
LL? Take all of the UTXOs from a particular address or wallet, send however=
 much needs to be spent to the payee, and send the rest back to the same ad=
dress or a change address as a single output? Through this method, we shoul=
d wind up shrinking the UTXO database over time rather than growing it with=
 each transaction. Obviously, as Bitcoin gains wider adoption, the UTXO dat=
abase will grow, simply because there are 7 billion people in the world, an=
d eventually a good percentage of them will have one or more wallets with s=
pendable bitcoin. But this idea could limit the growth at least.</div><div>=
<br /></div><div>The vast majority of users are running one of a handful of=
 different wallet apps: Core, Electrum; Armory; Mycelium; Breadwallet; Coin=
base; Circle; Blockchain.info; and maybe a few others. The developers of al=
l these wallets have a vested interest in the continued usefulness of Bitco=
in, and so should not be opposed to changing their UTXO selection algorithm=
s to one that reduces the UTXO database instead of growing it.</div><div><b=
r /></div><div>From the miners perspective, even though these types of tran=
sactions would be larger, the fee could stay low. Miners actually benefit f=
rom them in that it reduces the amount of storage they need to dedicate to =
holding the UTXO. So miners are incentivized to mine these types of transac=
tions with a higher priority despite a low fee.</div><div><br /></div><div>=
Relays could also get in on the action and enforce this type of behavior by=
 refusing to relay or deprioritizing the relay of transactions that don&#39=
;t use all of the available UTXOs from the addresses used as inputs. Relays=
 are not only the ones who benefit the most from a reduction of the UTXO da=
tabase, they&#39;re also in the best position to promote good behavior.</di=
v><div><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div><br /></div><div>--<div><b>James=
 G. Phillips IV</b>=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://plus.google.com/u/0/11310703950=
1292625391/posts" style=3D"font-size:x-small" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D=
"https://ssl.gstatic.com/images/icons/gplus-16.png" /></a>=C2=A0</div></div=
><div><font size=3D"1"><i>&quot;Don&#39;t bunt. Aim out of the ball park. A=
im for the company of immortals.&quot; -- David Ogilvy<br /></i></font><div=
><font size=3D"1"><br /></font></div></div><div><font size=3D"1"><img src=
=3D"http://findicons.com/files/icons/1156/fugue/16/leaf.png" />=C2=A0<em st=
yle=3D"font-family:verdana,geneva,sans-serif;line-height:16px;color:green;b=
ackground-color:rgb(255,255,255)">This message was created with 100% recycl=
ed electrons. Please think twice before printing.</em></font></div></div></=
div>
</div>


!DSPAM:554e4e5450787476022393!
<p style=3D"margin-top: 2.5em; margin-bottom: 1em; border-bottom: 1px solid=
 #000"></p><pre class=3D"k9mail"><hr /><br />One dashboard for servers and =
applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud <br />Widest out-of-the-box moni=
toring support with 50+ applications<br />Performance metrics, stats and re=
ports that give you Actionable Insights<br />Deep dive visibility with tran=
saction tracing using APM Insight.<br /><a href=3D"http://ad.doubleclick.ne=
t/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y">http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/29042051=
0;117567292;y</a><br /><br />!DSPAM:554e4e5450787476022393!<br /></pre><p s=
tyle=3D"margin-top: 2.5em; margin-bottom: 1em; border-bottom: 1px solid #00=
0"></p><pre class=3D"k9mail"><hr /><br />Bitcoin-development mailing list<b=
r />Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net<br /><a href=3D"https://lists=
=2Esourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development">https://lists.source=
forge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br /><br /><br />!DSPAM:55=
4e4e5450787476022393!<br /></pre></blockquote></div><br>
-- <br>
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.</body>=
</html>
--huq684BweRXVnRxX--

--XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
Content-Description: Digital signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlVPXp0ACgkQjwioWRGe9K1+2ACfViY0D2ksVFe29SwhxbtmNSC3
TQAAnRoJLI9wW3DQRPqQ7PorKxelC2S2
=Er51
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw--