1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
|
Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191]
helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
(envelope-from <jgarzik@bitpay.com>) id 1VIWNo-0001uy-DO
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Sun, 08 Sep 2013 04:13:56 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of bitpay.com
designates 209.85.212.178 as permitted sender)
client-ip=209.85.212.178; envelope-from=jgarzik@bitpay.com;
helo=mail-wi0-f178.google.com;
Received: from mail-wi0-f178.google.com ([209.85.212.178])
by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
(Exim 4.76) id 1VIWNn-0003K2-1V
for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
Sun, 08 Sep 2013 04:13:56 +0000
Received: by mail-wi0-f178.google.com with SMTP id hn9so2225789wib.11
for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
Sat, 07 Sep 2013 21:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20130820;
h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type;
bh=o6FdSqCT4i3yl+r5q4Kanou7HpSaPRoNsjkuRH2r3bs=;
b=Uo/8bsMx0s1Xy++QBwatpKZnmxBksllXhL1pwwraSalsgghCWHu60mLQBPAMgRmi/F
+Bbc0jrC8pAaHcINdwYb+MO4YmUaUfeVFKbur1ImUerwCgr0SZKFq/TvlurbpgQBSnl4
jYpoocBTCLoM4xWzuOIm/U4vkAMFppzdwxm6fqwSJ1lVN5AXZEV7ST/I2B5zF6P48GJz
N0qk1B0g+9Ixe9hHYmk/guEo6wL3QJScR+zXT2PZihutOQPzN2iSjZe8uT4iqNvLHRQ8
P5tpAdCpUQsS8jFUWjE3o3k6RS1hPvQvSnCSsD0yusJdLjTNxAfuH4cYFtGqHVVr7I9s
h9+Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlPcMQTW/xaA+2uXO5CFQIC80VvrssWLsO5eLGBfQi0enVWYU80b+7PbfsT6tZ/CnORnibf
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Received: by 10.181.12.16 with SMTP id em16mr3902161wid.36.1378613628229;
Sat, 07 Sep 2013 21:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.194.236.69 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Sep 2013 21:13:48 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <4016ea53a3a78392e6070979a97bb429@astutium.com>
References: <CAE0e52XQSMJj9pDb3OEMyAYkChi7=Y9=phKMm34zh1NQFSdcLw@mail.gmail.com>
<eb196950d9bf667a3b149a74c0d99ab0@astutium.com>
<201309072333.53026.luke@dashjr.org>
<4016ea53a3a78392e6070979a97bb429@astutium.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2013 00:13:48 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJHLa0N1A8fH+pbZSKFjtLcLHhJOwcEZVZ4cKGPjh5P46zP26Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
To: rob.golding@astutium.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
sender-domain
-0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record
-0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from
author's domain
0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
not necessarily valid
-0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
X-Headers-End: 1VIWNn-0003K2-1V
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Blockchain archival
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2013 04:13:56 -0000
This is all FAQ territory, and has been covered on the forums for years.
Balance-at-point-in-time is not completely trust-free, as it is a
dataset that must be bootstrapped into trust by... an earlier dataset.
Continue this logic and you have a... chain.
There is plenty of on-going discussion on UTXO snapshotting -- UTXO
lockin for each block, or something. This is /somewhat/ like
balance-at-point-in-time, but no one pretends it is trust-free.
The /only/ way to have a completely trust-free solution is to be able
to verify all data from genesis through $now. However, it is not
necessary for all bitcoin wallets to download and verify all those
gigabytes of data; that is what SPV mode is for.
Jeff
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 11:56 PM, <rob.golding@astutium.com> wrote:
>> (there's no way to be completely trust-free without this).
>
> Not quite true, as I said balance-at-point-in-time would solve that
> (and make the storage requirements much lower)
>
>>> If going that route, then solutions to the 'consolidate
>>> addresses/wallets'
>>> question and formal 'discard' of addresses could get addressed.
>>
>> Not sure what you mean here. Addresses and wallets are two completely
>> different things. Addresses are single-use destinations that point to
>> a wallet
>> (which is itself private and unknown to the network).
>
> For bitcoin to grow beyond interesting experiment into global everyday
> use a number of things would have to happen, not least of which is
> taking 'average punter' into account. Whilst new ideas can filter into
> the general consciousness over time,sometimes concepts have to go with
> 'what already works' :)
>
> People's concept of money hasn't really changed in over 1,000 years -
> it remains 'something of known value i can exchange for something else'.
>
> No-one outside of bitcoin dev's and early adopters really gets the
> one-shot concept of addresses - possibly rightly so - keeping issues of
> it lowering levels of anonymity etc out of the discussion - it doesn't
> fit with the mindset people have - it's difficult enough getting
> merchants to setup separate addresses for each client, one per
> transaction is simply a waste (of addresses, storage, blockchain size,
> numnber of inputs|outputs when spending etc)
>
> I'm sure the wife would love a new handbag everytime she gets some
> money, but the real-world just isnt like that ;)
>
> Addresses are perceived as the equivalent of a jar you stick your coins
> in. You can have lots of jars. Each jar can be for a specific reason or
> whatever, but the analogy is there.
>
> Wallets are like a box you keep some of your jars in. With the added
> interesting concept that a jar can be in multiple boxes at the same
> time. Only the person with the right 'key' can open the jar and take the
> contents.
>
> However unlike the 3 money boxes I have behind me right now - which i
> can take 1 single penny out of one and put it into another - if I want
> to move bitcoins from one addresses (jar) to another *of my own* I have
> to pay a fee. Worse still if the jar doesnt have much in it I'm denied
> that ability.
>
> End user will neither understand why or want to pay the fee, for
> dealing with their own coins.
> If a jar breaks I can just tip the contents into a new one - unless I'm
> very careless, the amount in the new one = the amount in the old one -
> people will want/need it to work like that.
>
> Similarly if you do have all these addresses around, you may want (as
> good housekeeping) discard some of them (after moving the cash).
>
> So having the ability to specify address to send from is essential (and
> a sadly missing feature of the QT client)
>
> 'intra-wallet' transfers with an 'also discard the sending address'
> would be a way of (once confirmed) stopping any further use of that
> address (denied any further transactions by miners ?) and when
> balance-at-point-in-time is implemented, a way of shrinking the storage
> for all other bitcoin users (who chosse not to have a full transaction
> set).
>
>
> If i send luke 10, and luke sends me back 3, i have 3, luke has 7.
> If luke sends me 2, and i send luke 1, i have 4 and luke has 6.
> To verify my ability to send jeff 4, all that is needed is to know that
> I have 4, not all the transactions that led to that state - thats how
> its done now, thats not necessarily efficient as bitcoin grows
>
> If luke sends me 4 more, i now have 4 again, luke has 3
> If i send 1 to each of the children, they have 1 each (*4)
>
> Having a 'family' wallet means when on holiday they can have that
> rental of quad-bikes - to send the rental company 4 the client only
> needs to know that those addresses now have 1 each in them, not all the
> previous transactions - if they didnt exist at the point-in-time
> balance, then yes, it would need to know about the luke>rob>kids
> transactions, but thats all
>
> I moved to a new netbook recently - it took 140 *hours* to d/load and
> process the blockchain (yes the wifi was that bad), I heard from one of
> our clients that (although they only had the client running during
> working hours) that to their desktop it was over 9 days before it had
> caught up.
>
> If all I was d/loading were the transactions since the last difficulty
> change (as one example of a fixed point), and the remaining balance on
> any not-discarded address as at that point it would have been much much
> quicker, and not be shagging my shiny new hard drive.
>
> There's more but it's 4.45 in the morning, and I cant think coherently
> until after a few hours kip and some good coffee :)
>
> Rob
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn the latest--Visual Studio 2012, SharePoint 2013, SQL 2012, more!
> Discover the easy way to master current and previous Microsoft technologies
> and advance your career. Get an incredible 1,500+ hours of step-by-step
> tutorial videos with LearnDevNow. Subscribe today and save!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=58041391&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
--
Jeff Garzik
Senior Software Engineer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
|