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In-Reply-To: <ZMke8q+5iDUH8fm+@petertodd.org>
From: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 01:27:24 +0300
Message-ID: <CACkWPs9GiGxn-F2DBy6tA+f+b1Kv6bmoivAqqz7CSfPsiMwcgQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Pull-req to enable Full-RBF by default
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Your research is not thorough and reaches an incorrect conclusion.

As stated many times - we service payment processors and some merchants
directly  - Coinspaid services multiple merchants and process a
significant amount of BTC they are a well known and active in the space -
as I provided back in December 2022 a email from Max the CEO of Coinspaid
confirming their use of 0-conf as well as providing there cluster addresses
to validate there deposit flows see here again -
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-December/02123=
9.html
- if this is not sufficient then please email support@coinspaid.com and ask
to be connected to Max or someone from the team who can confirm Conspaid is
clients of GAP600. Max also at the time was open to do a call, I can check
again now and see if this is still the case and connect you.

That on its own is enough of a sample to validate our statistics.

I have also spoken to Changelly earlier today and they offered to email pro
@ changelly.com and they will be able to confirm GAP600 as a service
provider. Also please send me the 1 trx hash you tested and I can see if it
was queried to our system and if so offer some info as to why it wasnt
approved. Also if you can elaborate how you integrated with Changelly - I
can check with them if that area is not integrated with GAP600.

As the architect of such a major change to the status of 0-conf
transactions I would think you would welcome the opportunity to speak to
business and users who actual activities will be impacted by full RBF
becoming dominant.

Are you able to provide the same i.e emails and contacts of people at
the mining pools who can confirm they have adopted FULL RBF ?

________________________________

Daniel Lipshitz
GAP600| www.gap600.com
Phone: +44 113 4900 117
Skype: daniellipshitz123
Twitter: @daniellipshitz


On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 6:04=E2=80=AFPM Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrot=
e:

> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 01:26:11PM +0300, Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev
> wrote:
> > This would unnecessarily and extremely negatively impact merchants and
> > users who choose to accept 0-conf while using mitigation tools like
> GAP600.
> > This negative impact could be avoided by simply adding first seen safe
> rule
> > - ie a trx can be replaced but needs to include the original outputs.
> >
> > At GAP600 we continue to see strong use of our service for BTC we have
> seen
> > circa 350k unique trx hash per month (over the last 3 months) requested
> to
> > our platform. Our clients include - Coinpayments, Coinspaid and
> Changelly.
>
> I checked, and Coinpayments and Coinspaid are both merchant processors. I
> could
> not find any example of actual merchants using their platform accepting
> unconfirmed payments. I also could not find any documentation on their
> websites
> indicating unconfirmed transaction acceptance.
>
> As for Changelly, their website says right on the front that "With an
> average
> transaction speed of 5=E2=80=9340 minutes, we ensure you can swiftly take
> advantage of
> market opportunities." Obivously, 5 minutes is not an unconfirmed payment=
.
>
> Additionally, I verified myself by doing test transactions with BIP125
> disabled
> and an adequate fee: unconfirmed payments are not accepted by Changelly. =
As
> their exchange flow clearly says "Once BTC is confirmed in the blockchain=
,
> we=E2=80=99ll start exchanging it to <coin>."
>
> You need to provide an genuine example of an actual merchant who accepts
> unconfirmed transactions as payment, and actually relies on first-seen
> behavior.
>
> > We have not seen any impact of full RBF on double spend rates for our
> trxs
>
> Based on the above findings, this appears to be because you don't actuall=
y
> have
> any clients who rely on unconfirmed payments.
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Your research is not thorough=C2=A0and reaches an inc=
orrect conclusion.</div><div><br></div>As stated many times - we service pa=
yment processors and some merchants directly=C2=A0 - Coinspaid services mul=
tiple merchants and process a significant=C2=A0amount of BTC they are a wel=
l known and active in the space - as I provided back in December 2022 a ema=
il from Max the CEO of Coinspaid confirming their use of 0-conf as well as =
providing there cluster addresses to validate there deposit flows see here =
again -=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin=
-dev/2022-December/021239.html">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail=
/bitcoin-dev/2022-December/021239.html</a> - if this is not sufficient=C2=
=A0then please email <a href=3D"mailto:support@coinspaid.com">support@coins=
paid.com</a> and ask to be connected to Max or someone from the team who ca=
n confirm Conspaid is clients of GAP600. Max also at the time was open to d=
o a call, I can check again now and see if this is still the case and conne=
ct you.<div><br></div><div>That on its own is enough of a sample to validat=
e our statistics.</div><div><br></div><div>I have=C2=A0also spoken=C2=A0to =
Changelly earlier today and they offered to em<font color=3D"#000000">ail p=
ro @ <a href=3D"http://changelly.com">changelly.com</a> a</font>nd they wil=
l be able to confirm GAP600 as a service provider. Also please send me the =
1 trx hash you tested and I can see if it was queried to our system and if =
so offer some info as to why it wasnt approved. Also if you can elaborate=
=C2=A0how you integrated with Changelly - I can check with them if that are=
a is not integrated with GAP600.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>As the arch=
itect of such a major change to the status of 0-conf transactions=C2=A0I wo=
uld think you would welcome the opportunity=C2=A0to speak to business and u=
sers who actual activities will be impacted by full RBF becoming dominant.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Are you able to provide the same i.e emails and co=
ntacts of people at the=C2=A0mining=C2=A0pools who can confirm they have ad=
opted FULL RBF ?<br><div class=3D"gmail-content-inner" dir=3D"auto" style=
=3D"box-sizing:border-box;min-width:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:system=
-ui,-apple-system,&quot;system-ui&quot;,Roboto,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot=
;,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,sans-serif"><div class=3D"gmail-text-content g=
mail-clearfix gmail-with-meta" dir=3D"auto" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;=
margin:0px;word-break:break-word;line-height:1.3125;text-align:initial;unic=
ode-bidi:plaintext;border-radius:0.25rem"><br></div></div><div><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">____________=
____________________</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Daniel Lipshitz<=
/font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"=
tahoma, sans-serif">GAP600|=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.gap600.com/" target=
=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</a></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Phone:=C2=A0</font><span=
 style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">+44 113 4900 117<=
/span></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"=
tahoma, sans-serif">Skype: daniellipshitz123</font></div><div style=3D"font=
-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Twitter: @=
daniellipshitz</font></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, =
Aug 1, 2023 at 6:04=E2=80=AFPM Peter Todd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pete@petert=
odd.org">pete@petertodd.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 01:26:11PM +0300, Daniel=
 Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
&gt; This would unnecessarily and extremely negatively impact merchants and=
<br>
&gt; users who choose to accept 0-conf while using mitigation tools like GA=
P600.<br>
&gt; This negative impact could be avoided by simply adding first seen safe=
 rule<br>
&gt; - ie a trx can be replaced but needs to include the original outputs.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; At GAP600 we continue to see strong use of our service for BTC we have=
 seen<br>
&gt; circa 350k unique trx hash per month (over the last 3 months) requeste=
d to<br>
&gt; our platform. Our clients include - Coinpayments, Coinspaid and Change=
lly.<br>
<br>
I checked, and Coinpayments and Coinspaid are both merchant processors. I c=
ould<br>
not find any example of actual merchants using their platform accepting<br>
unconfirmed payments. I also could not find any documentation on their webs=
ites<br>
indicating unconfirmed transaction acceptance.<br>
<br>
As for Changelly, their website says right on the front that &quot;With an =
average<br>
transaction speed of 5=E2=80=9340 minutes, we ensure you can swiftly take a=
dvantage of<br>
market opportunities.&quot; Obivously, 5 minutes is not an unconfirmed paym=
ent.<br>
<br>
Additionally, I verified myself by doing test transactions with BIP125 disa=
bled<br>
and an adequate fee: unconfirmed payments are not accepted by Changelly. As=
<br>
their exchange flow clearly says &quot;Once BTC is confirmed in the blockch=
ain,<br>
we=E2=80=99ll start exchanging it to &lt;coin&gt;.&quot;<br>
<br>
You need to provide an genuine example of an actual merchant who accepts<br=
>
unconfirmed transactions as payment, and actually relies on first-seen<br>
behavior.<br>
<br>
&gt; We have not seen any impact of full RBF on double spend rates for our =
trxs<br>
<br>
Based on the above findings, this appears to be because you don&#39;t actua=
lly have<br>
any clients who rely on unconfirmed payments.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://petertodd.org</a> &#39;peter&#39;[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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