summaryrefslogtreecommitdiff
path: root/e5/7304be9d30a070bc22ed01760fdeccdb6b580b
blob: 7edd040550138457b34c9f8f4ef7ab25ae0d412a (plain)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
Return-Path: <daniel@gap600.com>
Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [140.211.166.136])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF04C0032
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  1 Aug 2023 22:27:39 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAD5F60BFF
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  1 Aug 2023 22:27:38 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org EAD5F60BFF
Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org;
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gap600.com header.i=@gap600.com
 header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=google header.b=PmHuw954
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id 3SHNEeDgyn4Y
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  1 Aug 2023 22:27:37 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from mail-vk1-xa34.google.com (mail-vk1-xa34.google.com
 [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a34])
 by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93A5960DFE
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue,  1 Aug 2023 22:27:37 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org 93A5960DFE
Received: by mail-vk1-xa34.google.com with SMTP id
 71dfb90a1353d-48642c1607bso2468467e0c.0
 for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
 Tue, 01 Aug 2023 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=gap600.com; s=google; t=1690928856; x=1691533656;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
 bh=GADwq+PoZrK3WQyReK+F2bHhwaWolrJ77yqKzxhG44w=;
 b=PmHuw954PkNrbx/v9P0WBvT8xYDQOKc0mipoGpijoSwEOyoMkhQ77evD5I2wTKs4t4
 wYAOePaMLw9DaH0Pqhg5cUh0gUsbwLNS8CpA6BdY11tidQFF+FfehtACKCPC4Ue/g0c2
 vrPyA2eN4nqBHLCbAIoopuRuX0zYFWxGByUPCrK3fU1JE9qnppCFSyKzzvn7g3RamFcC
 yzNJLmTV8tCNZCZNjnTmktlAztgLPzW4tVOaECK4fTeidD9hcqI9u9e0lVmvGxmjBxUB
 +2VoxAEXw4eBTqy2bYhDliondbRGTUDZVydScX1iNulkk1u6kVMDIKEVK3Fc38WVlS/J
 qLfg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1690928856; x=1691533656;
 h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references
 :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
 :reply-to;
 bh=GADwq+PoZrK3WQyReK+F2bHhwaWolrJ77yqKzxhG44w=;
 b=QFj0tEhkb5uDgf4NDp5TO7KLswjENhCNnIBGy3gKUXtttwEUTgksA74S0yh6F/JL9x
 B11pE7tQPCRYD452LCtv82tVbj0RKwDU6ZtWtzVhCdmcl6gtWRoz8rG6X62ptyaO+oYL
 AJ6tmWWSx3tvcHX2raFuNjj5rzimCtAxqr5sk6+wFOWkWz9f5dagKVOVcDdLsJy+rK/9
 gic/LKIyJf36ElyHs5xzIN7ozypqvnmRZNfYOOw+LCmdNnKLLar54O4zdrBPRcFEifv1
 IWYkRZ18pwwD/HGUk1FHDas2izgoWR2YnrO1n6lanmoms/gCuvJ6kiCvqEPORyG4YXIB
 CFFQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: ABy/qLbJU6TdgWvdBuEaBGKXNSSKkgo39sy4JRMIU1voxmNvLYEPQlzK
 NXwQr+ZgwL+7u2zNULeEff1jv1WA1NJqYwT1XTzOiw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APBJJlGStwZXfIIlx4TGql2JE5v8Pa7AvVqLXfOyOOowo89y7rxuB8Y+zJHNqTcWS3YcppnpQCkQpNXXOho5usXygK8=
X-Received: by 2002:a1f:4394:0:b0:485:ac24:df1 with SMTP id
 q142-20020a1f4394000000b00485ac240df1mr3647947vka.12.1690928855973; Tue, 01
 Aug 2023 15:27:35 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <mailman.126799.1690753843.956.bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
 <CACkWPs9JRYNd5bNGCZzihhywY1GDaXfSh858GhL7TrU=uzUB0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <ZMke8q+5iDUH8fm+@petertodd.org>
In-Reply-To: <ZMke8q+5iDUH8fm+@petertodd.org>
From: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 01:27:24 +0300
Message-ID: <CACkWPs9GiGxn-F2DBy6tA+f+b1Kv6bmoivAqqz7CSfPsiMwcgQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cd17710601e40d1c"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 22:59:38 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Pull-req to enable Full-RBF by default
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 22:27:39 -0000

--000000000000cd17710601e40d1c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Your research is not thorough and reaches an incorrect conclusion.

As stated many times - we service payment processors and some merchants
directly  - Coinspaid services multiple merchants and process a
significant amount of BTC they are a well known and active in the space -
as I provided back in December 2022 a email from Max the CEO of Coinspaid
confirming their use of 0-conf as well as providing there cluster addresses
to validate there deposit flows see here again -
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-December/02123=
9.html
- if this is not sufficient then please email support@coinspaid.com and ask
to be connected to Max or someone from the team who can confirm Conspaid is
clients of GAP600. Max also at the time was open to do a call, I can check
again now and see if this is still the case and connect you.

That on its own is enough of a sample to validate our statistics.

I have also spoken to Changelly earlier today and they offered to email pro
@ changelly.com and they will be able to confirm GAP600 as a service
provider. Also please send me the 1 trx hash you tested and I can see if it
was queried to our system and if so offer some info as to why it wasnt
approved. Also if you can elaborate how you integrated with Changelly - I
can check with them if that area is not integrated with GAP600.

As the architect of such a major change to the status of 0-conf
transactions I would think you would welcome the opportunity to speak to
business and users who actual activities will be impacted by full RBF
becoming dominant.

Are you able to provide the same i.e emails and contacts of people at
the mining pools who can confirm they have adopted FULL RBF ?

________________________________

Daniel Lipshitz
GAP600| www.gap600.com
Phone: +44 113 4900 117
Skype: daniellipshitz123
Twitter: @daniellipshitz


On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 6:04=E2=80=AFPM Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrot=
e:

> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 01:26:11PM +0300, Daniel Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev
> wrote:
> > This would unnecessarily and extremely negatively impact merchants and
> > users who choose to accept 0-conf while using mitigation tools like
> GAP600.
> > This negative impact could be avoided by simply adding first seen safe
> rule
> > - ie a trx can be replaced but needs to include the original outputs.
> >
> > At GAP600 we continue to see strong use of our service for BTC we have
> seen
> > circa 350k unique trx hash per month (over the last 3 months) requested
> to
> > our platform. Our clients include - Coinpayments, Coinspaid and
> Changelly.
>
> I checked, and Coinpayments and Coinspaid are both merchant processors. I
> could
> not find any example of actual merchants using their platform accepting
> unconfirmed payments. I also could not find any documentation on their
> websites
> indicating unconfirmed transaction acceptance.
>
> As for Changelly, their website says right on the front that "With an
> average
> transaction speed of 5=E2=80=9340 minutes, we ensure you can swiftly take
> advantage of
> market opportunities." Obivously, 5 minutes is not an unconfirmed payment=
.
>
> Additionally, I verified myself by doing test transactions with BIP125
> disabled
> and an adequate fee: unconfirmed payments are not accepted by Changelly. =
As
> their exchange flow clearly says "Once BTC is confirmed in the blockchain=
,
> we=E2=80=99ll start exchanging it to <coin>."
>
> You need to provide an genuine example of an actual merchant who accepts
> unconfirmed transactions as payment, and actually relies on first-seen
> behavior.
>
> > We have not seen any impact of full RBF on double spend rates for our
> trxs
>
> Based on the above findings, this appears to be because you don't actuall=
y
> have
> any clients who rely on unconfirmed payments.
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>

--000000000000cd17710601e40d1c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Your research is not thorough=C2=A0and reaches an inc=
orrect conclusion.</div><div><br></div>As stated many times - we service pa=
yment processors and some merchants directly=C2=A0 - Coinspaid services mul=
tiple merchants and process a significant=C2=A0amount of BTC they are a wel=
l known and active in the space - as I provided back in December 2022 a ema=
il from Max the CEO of Coinspaid confirming their use of 0-conf as well as =
providing there cluster addresses to validate there deposit flows see here =
again -=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin=
-dev/2022-December/021239.html">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail=
/bitcoin-dev/2022-December/021239.html</a> - if this is not sufficient=C2=
=A0then please email <a href=3D"mailto:support@coinspaid.com">support@coins=
paid.com</a> and ask to be connected to Max or someone from the team who ca=
n confirm Conspaid is clients of GAP600. Max also at the time was open to d=
o a call, I can check again now and see if this is still the case and conne=
ct you.<div><br></div><div>That on its own is enough of a sample to validat=
e our statistics.</div><div><br></div><div>I have=C2=A0also spoken=C2=A0to =
Changelly earlier today and they offered to em<font color=3D"#000000">ail p=
ro @ <a href=3D"http://changelly.com">changelly.com</a> a</font>nd they wil=
l be able to confirm GAP600 as a service provider. Also please send me the =
1 trx hash you tested and I can see if it was queried to our system and if =
so offer some info as to why it wasnt approved. Also if you can elaborate=
=C2=A0how you integrated with Changelly - I can check with them if that are=
a is not integrated with GAP600.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>As the arch=
itect of such a major change to the status of 0-conf transactions=C2=A0I wo=
uld think you would welcome the opportunity=C2=A0to speak to business and u=
sers who actual activities will be impacted by full RBF becoming dominant.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Are you able to provide the same i.e emails and co=
ntacts of people at the=C2=A0mining=C2=A0pools who can confirm they have ad=
opted FULL RBF ?<br><div class=3D"gmail-content-inner" dir=3D"auto" style=
=3D"box-sizing:border-box;min-width:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:system=
-ui,-apple-system,&quot;system-ui&quot;,Roboto,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot=
;,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,sans-serif"><div class=3D"gmail-text-content g=
mail-clearfix gmail-with-meta" dir=3D"auto" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;=
margin:0px;word-break:break-word;line-height:1.3125;text-align:initial;unic=
ode-bidi:plaintext;border-radius:0.25rem"><br></div></div><div><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">____________=
____________________</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.8px"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Daniel Lipshitz<=
/font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"=
tahoma, sans-serif">GAP600|=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.gap600.com/" target=
=3D"_blank">www.gap600.com</a></font></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Phone:=C2=A0</font><span=
 style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">+44 113 4900 117<=
/span></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"=
tahoma, sans-serif">Skype: daniellipshitz123</font></div><div style=3D"font=
-size:12.8px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><font face=3D"tahoma, sans-serif">Twitter: @=
daniellipshitz</font></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, =
Aug 1, 2023 at 6:04=E2=80=AFPM Peter Todd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pete@petert=
odd.org">pete@petertodd.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 01:26:11PM +0300, Daniel=
 Lipshitz via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br>
&gt; This would unnecessarily and extremely negatively impact merchants and=
<br>
&gt; users who choose to accept 0-conf while using mitigation tools like GA=
P600.<br>
&gt; This negative impact could be avoided by simply adding first seen safe=
 rule<br>
&gt; - ie a trx can be replaced but needs to include the original outputs.<=
br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; At GAP600 we continue to see strong use of our service for BTC we have=
 seen<br>
&gt; circa 350k unique trx hash per month (over the last 3 months) requeste=
d to<br>
&gt; our platform. Our clients include - Coinpayments, Coinspaid and Change=
lly.<br>
<br>
I checked, and Coinpayments and Coinspaid are both merchant processors. I c=
ould<br>
not find any example of actual merchants using their platform accepting<br>
unconfirmed payments. I also could not find any documentation on their webs=
ites<br>
indicating unconfirmed transaction acceptance.<br>
<br>
As for Changelly, their website says right on the front that &quot;With an =
average<br>
transaction speed of 5=E2=80=9340 minutes, we ensure you can swiftly take a=
dvantage of<br>
market opportunities.&quot; Obivously, 5 minutes is not an unconfirmed paym=
ent.<br>
<br>
Additionally, I verified myself by doing test transactions with BIP125 disa=
bled<br>
and an adequate fee: unconfirmed payments are not accepted by Changelly. As=
<br>
their exchange flow clearly says &quot;Once BTC is confirmed in the blockch=
ain,<br>
we=E2=80=99ll start exchanging it to &lt;coin&gt;.&quot;<br>
<br>
You need to provide an genuine example of an actual merchant who accepts<br=
>
unconfirmed transactions as payment, and actually relies on first-seen<br>
behavior.<br>
<br>
&gt; We have not seen any impact of full RBF on double spend rates for our =
trxs<br>
<br>
Based on the above findings, this appears to be because you don&#39;t actua=
lly have<br>
any clients who rely on unconfirmed payments.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://petertodd.org</a> &#39;peter&#39;[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000cd17710601e40d1c--