path: root/e4/14b0a84e4a116ef89164920b4ca438965af216

Return-Path: <patrick.murck@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
	[172.17.192.35])
	by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D13A1052
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:04:51 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-oi0-f50.google.com (mail-oi0-f50.google.com
	[209.85.218.50])
	by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5080B405
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:04:50 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-oi0-f50.google.com with SMTP id t135so1724583oif.8
	for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
	Tue, 13 Feb 2018 09:04:50 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
	h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to
	:cc; bh=W6MZGZyvBx6IAaFumhRP47ZO9onPnK5O5RDHLKJY+cQ=;
	b=DljU7MP9QecnHn/TAZ+wAD8j/eXjjWgy3bVBVUSo/If1Mo3hKUL4jWIqlqvZGHGjw3
	0iEFJgqzT6uMdUJLreNBUKk8BjJQzJUREoG00S8/7j7qV+2VdONXNrillECNumh4iYDK
	MJAuUxRNDF7nK39+GUbsh7QatE5geYX73HXxyzufstE/WF5lHh0gSPJ1dmX+f7ATe5n8
	vUvuJre35G+aB2B1gunHIKvvhzH8MTEmtOY3LtLmwHCES3bqbxm7H0xcXKsz46rv1KhP
	SVauRY5oD31dRaRryJP21lM7H5lxnL2N2rO8ScV2YVsu8Qe4BKcmuIhwnWBZ0CBNydJL
	t4RQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
	d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
	h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date
	:message-id:subject:to:cc;
	bh=W6MZGZyvBx6IAaFumhRP47ZO9onPnK5O5RDHLKJY+cQ=;
	b=rsjZq4TEoJUctw8wikhFDdbSpB8gDXZx0ZdIzKGnqKzHE5FqvQqdr0gwnOUilth5Me
	T+Mo2N8EGfqNnLxK7pG831TjYRT9IWQt42mX4laCg3aBwEytIS1wQI3tVhka4Eflr/2f
	fqZMsQzIh9qML8V3J+vbvJ5R+k2v4JxVCxWhZ3stJw+Entys6Fk+Woju4adVizvaF8sP
	ZfTbD+80InHW5f8URKEyw9+nkn2pevNr8NNlIqOzO67io8TDFPSUlHx09LXVfgnJKC35
	m77DXupdN5WzIBZ4Sr5FTVTTqmi2dcQpNeDcA+CCX3z3bjc7WHFt2gfau0faJeJZPRH7
	cpLA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPA2Suj+qSqFX7NKjEaD2SV4F8R9EN4IYmsQqGeM/xVdZqEi6WBz
	JkYx+NSZUP1NTzQQlCKsv1PzanJrN/crT4ObTKg=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x224cJSxdgDDow6mymJZptoMlfIbUC0qjbz59gLdrBb0giPTMcIAdZzkbqbqkis/8nv1lYLDlq4g02Tfh7BsD72A=
X-Received: by 10.84.77.143 with SMTP id y15mr1323889oix.329.1518541489297;
	Tue, 13 Feb 2018 09:04:49 -0800 (PST)
Received: from 1058052472880 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with
	HTTPREST; Tue, 13 Feb 2018 12:04:48 -0500
From: Patrick Murck <patrick.murck@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAJQ0i9vDWqryxni6sEx1NDHjLpUCCH=F=t0s2p-seYYtyhuosw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <65F92B37-48C1-4CD5-8F17-47BF9BD231A9@gmail.com>
	<CAAt2M1-fEnQxjX40c-sjUYpfLpJtS-fy5t244vUOZSb8Pm=MrQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADL_X_cNdhydrn0D0vXSXK1s42dC7-n_7oW2TQJcpvkG6Oa0ow@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJQ0i9vDWqryxni6sEx1NDHjLpUCCH=F=t0s2p-seYYtyhuosw@mail.gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Airmail (467)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 12:04:48 -0500
Message-ID: <CAJ7+2R0aAo_twfjQvdxCu_K_4Rscr_kwEQvYGZtAGzCw345dJA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>,
	Brian Lockhart <brianlockhart@gmail.com>, 
	Natanael <natanael.l@gmail.com>, 
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1b69f40bdf4f05651afeaa"
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
	DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,
	RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, 
	UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
	smtp1.linux-foundation.org
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:14:26 +0000
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?JOSE_FEMENIAS_CA=C3=91UELO?= <jose.femenias@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Possible change to the MIT license
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:04:51 -0000

--94eb2c1b69f40bdf4f05651afeaa
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is a poor idea, and agree that it=E2=80=99s largely off-topic. So with=
out
wasting too much of anyone=E2=80=99s time here, I=E2=80=99d point out the f=
ollowing.

It is pretty clear that any developer who is subject to a lawsuit from
someone using Bitcoin Core software could point to the license (among other
things) *defensively* to limit their liability.

But who would be in a position to assert an *offensive* claim that their
license terms have been breached? Who would have a right in the software
that they are granting via the license? Definitely not the Bitcoin
Foundation=E2=80=A6

This software is meant to be free and open for anyone to use, unfortunately
that means some people will sometimes do things you disagree with.

-pm

On February 13, 2018 at 11:24:37 AM, Brian Lockhart via bitcoin-dev (
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org) wrote:

> I don't think that Bitcoin should be reliant upon courts or governments
to defend itself against attacks of any form.

Agree 100%. Plus yeah, lotsa luck getting any success via those channels...

But assuming the answer to the perceived problem is to =E2=80=9Cfight fire =
with
fire=E2=80=9D (using social / marketing based efforts) who =E2=80=9Cshould=
=E2=80=9D pick up the
mantle here? Without inciting riots by asking the question, wouldn=E2=80=99=
t that
ostensibly be something the Bitcoin Foundation would lead on here? <ducks
and runs for cover>

In any case, it=E2=80=99s frustrating to watch the ongoing FUD and scammery=
 going
unanswered in any =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D capacity.


On February 13, 2018 at 7:25:35 AM, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev (
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org) wrote:

If I'm understanding the problem being stated correctly:

"Bitcoin is under a branding attack by fork coins."

The proposed solution is to disincentivize fork coins from using the word
Bitcoin by altering the license terms. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me
that the words of the license are basically useless unless there is an
entity that intends to make use of court systems to threaten noncompliant
projects into submission.

In my opinion, the perceived attack on Bitcoin here is social /
marketing-based, thus it makes sense that any defense against said attack
should also be social / marketing-based. I don't think that Bitcoin should
be reliant upon courts or governments to defend itself against attacks of
any form.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Natanael via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

>
>
> Den 13 feb. 2018 15:07 skrev "JOSE FEMENIAS CA=C3=91UELO via bitcoin-dev"=
 <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>:
>
> ***
> NO PART OF THIS SOFTWARE CAN BE INCLUDED IN ANY OTHER PROJECT THAT USES
> THE NAME BITCOIN AS PART OF ITS NAME AND/OR ITS MARKETING MATERIAL UNLESS
> THE SOFTWARE PRODUCED BY THAT PROJECT IS FULLY COMPATIBLE WITH THE BITCOI=
N
> (CORE) BLOCKCHAIN
> ***
>
>
> That's better solved with trademarks. (whoever would be the trademark
> holder - Satoshi?)
>
> This would also prohibit any reimplementation that's not formally verifie=
d
> to be perfectly compatible from using the name.
>
> It also adds legal uncertainty.
>
> Another major problem is that it neither affects anybody forking older
> versions of Bitcoin, not people using existing independent blockchain
> implementations and renaming them Bitcoin-Whatsoever.
>
> And what happens when an old version is technically incompatible with a
> future version by the Core team due to not understanding various new
> softforks? Which version wins the right to the name?
>
> Also, being unable to even mention Bitcoin is overkill.
>
> The software license also don't affect the blockchain data.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

--94eb2c1b69f40bdf4f05651afeaa
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">This is a poor idea,=
 and agree that it=E2=80=99s largely off-topic. So without wasting too much=
 of anyone=E2=80=99s time here, I=E2=80=99d point out the following.</div><=
div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:=
13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">It is pretty clear that a=
ny developer who is subject to a lawsuit from someone using Bitcoin Core so=
ftware could point to the license (among other things) *defensively* to lim=
it their liability.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-f=
amily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-=
height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:a=
uto">But who would be in a position to assert an *offensive* claim that the=
ir license terms have been breached? Who would have a right in the software=
 that they are granting via the license? Definitely not the Bitcoin Foundat=
ion=E2=80=A6</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">=
<br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial=
;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">This sof=
tware is meant to be free and open for anyone to use, unfortunately that me=
ans some people will sometimes do things you disagree with.</div> <br> <div=
 id=3D"bloop_sign_1518541000124874240" class=3D"bloop_sign">-pm</div> <br><=
p class=3D"airmail_on">On February 13, 2018 at 11:24:37 AM, Brian Lockhart =
via bitcoin-dev (<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">b=
itcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"ci=
te" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:=
after-white-space"><div></div><div>




<title></title>


<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
&gt; I don&#39;t think that Bitcoin should be reliant upon courts or
governments to defend itself against attacks of any form.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
Agree 100%. Plus yeah, lotsa luck getting any success via those
channels...</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
But assuming the answer to the perceived problem is to =E2=80=9Cfight fire
with fire=E2=80=9D (using social / marketing based efforts) who =E2=80=9Csh=
ould=E2=80=9D
pick up the mantle here? Without inciting riots by asking the
question, wouldn=E2=80=99t that ostensibly be something the Bitcoin
Foundation would lead on here? &lt;ducks and runs for
cover&gt;</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
In any case, it=E2=80=99s frustrating to watch the ongoing FUD and scammery
going unanswered in any =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D capacity.</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"bloop_sign" id=3D"bloop_sign_1518536036721418752"></div>
<br>
<p class=3D"airmail_on">On February 13, 2018 at 7:25:35 AM, Jameson
Lopp via bitcoin-dev (<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o=
rg">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>)
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><span>If I&#39;m understanding the problem being stated
correctly:<br>
<br>
&quot;Bitcoin is under a branding attack by fork coins.&quot;</span>
<div><span><br></span></div>
<div><span>The proposed solution is to disincentivize fork coins
from using the word Bitcoin by altering the license terms. I&#39;m not
a lawyer, but it seems to me that the words of the license are
basically useless unless there is an entity that intends to make
use of court systems to threaten noncompliant projects into
submission.</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div>
<div><span>In my opinion, the perceived attack on Bitcoin here is
social / marketing-based, thus it makes sense that any defense
against said attack should also be social / marketing-based. I
don&#39;t think that Bitcoin should be reliant upon courts or
governments to defend itself against attacks of any
form.</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><span><br></span>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:25 AM,
Natanael via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-de=
v@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfound=
ation.org</a>&gt;</span>
wrote:<br></span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div><span class=3D""><br></span>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><span class=3D""><br></span>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">Den 13 feb. 2018 15:07
skrev &quot;JOSE FEMENIAS CA=C3=91UELO via bitcoin-dev&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-de=
v@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"m_4333531158757201305quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"">***<br>
NO PART OF THIS SOFTWARE CAN BE INCLUDED IN ANY OTHER PROJECT THAT
USES THE NAME BITCOIN AS PART OF ITS NAME AND/OR ITS MARKETING
MATERIAL UNLESS THE SOFTWARE PRODUCED BY THAT PROJECT IS FULLY
COMPATIBLE WITH THE BITCOIN (CORE) BLOCKCHAIN<br>
***<br></span></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span class=3D""><br></span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">That&#39;s better solved with trademarks. (whoever
would be the trademark holder - Satoshi?)=C2=A0=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">This would also prohibit any reimplementation
that&#39;s not formally verified to be perfectly compatible from using
the name.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">It also adds legal uncertainty.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Another major problem is that it neither affects
anybody forking older versions of Bitcoin, not people using
existing independent blockchain implementations and renaming them
Bitcoin-Whatsoever.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">And what happens when an old version is technically
incompatible with a future version by the Core team due to not
understanding various new softforks? Which version wins the right
to the name?=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Also, being unable to even mention Bitcoin is
overkill.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">The software license also don&#39;t affect the
blockchain data.=C2=A0</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"m_4333531158757201305quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>

<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>

<br></blockquote>
</div>
<br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org</a><br>

<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">=
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>


_______________________________________________
<br>bitcoin-dev mailing list
<br><a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org</a>
<br><a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d=
ev">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--94eb2c1b69f40bdf4f05651afeaa--