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Reply to dead man's switch,

Since this topic as gone un-technical,

People can already place a timer on transactions with the script to send
funds if not moved for a given period,

And people are responsible adults, trying to take ahead of every possible
future human error from the protocol perspective looks more like french
socialism than bitcoinism

Le 11 d=C3=A9c. 2017 19:32, <bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org>=
 a
=C3=A9crit :

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Radoslaw Biernacki)
   2. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Pieter Wuille)
   3. Re: BIP - Dead Man's Switch (Chris Riley)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:13:26 +0100
From: Radoslaw Biernacki <radoslaw.biernacki@gmail.com>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra <teweldemat@gmail.com>,        Bitcoin Protocol
        Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
        <CADp3C4vfL8yE4C8T5nU_qpOOLkDP+eMwM_pXmbdB0Nj0vbJHUg@mail.gmail.com=
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

Aside from that such change would require a hard fork it also violates one
of basic rules of bitcoin, which has long term consequences for miners and
for whole Bitcoin economy. In short, after altering the supply limit it
would not be "bitcoin" anymore.

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mine=
d
> are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin
> addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million
> Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is no
way
> of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from
> circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is cappe=
d
> at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in
> circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an end.
>
> The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's switch to
> Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to
> dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed
> dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of time,
> say ten years.
>
> The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the
> Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that miner's
> reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.
>
> Ref:
>
> http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_
source=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dico=
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:26:40 -0800
From: Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com>
To: Nick Pudar <nick@pudar.com>,        Bitcoin Dev
        <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
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On Dec 11, 2017 10:23, "Nick Pudar via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

This topic has come up several times in recent years. While it is well
intentioned, it can have devastating outcomes for people that want to save
long term. If such a system were implemented, it would force people to move
funds around in order to not get nullified. In that process, it introduces
multiple opportunities for errors. Cold storage should be able to stay
cold. I personally would be apprehensive about implementing this kind of a
system.


Furthermore, if it rewards miners with funds that are expired, it creates
terrible incentives. Miners in their best interest could choose to censor
transactions that move funds close to their expiration time, to increase
their own future rewards.

Cheers,

--
Pieter
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:28:03 -0500
From: Chris Riley <criley@gmail.com>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra <teweldemat@gmail.com>,        Bitcoin Protocol
        Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man's Switch
Message-ID:
        <CAL5BAw1ayaiD07PJ4MRqcKaXdet5KW131en69vbw5gebWTF8nA@mail.gmail.com=
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

Hi,
1. If there are 16.4 million mined and 4 million are lost, that results in
12.4 million in circulation vs 14.4 million.
2. Satoshi addressed this as have numerous other people (
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D198.msg1647#msg1647 ) - lost coin=
s
decrease supply, increasing value of the remaining coins.
3. This assumes this is a problem.  Bitcoin is divisible, 100 million,
potentially more if necessary. (
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Help:FAQ#How_divisible_are_bitcoins.3F)
4. Why is it okay to steal bitcoins from people who's bitcoins have been
"dormant" for a fixed period, 10 years in your example?
5. What happens to bitcoins that, say, Hal Finney still had (if any) and he
put in cold storage while he is in ultimate cold storage (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist)#Death) ?
Ditto for someone, say, in a coma for 11 years, in jail for 11 years or any
other similar event?  Or a 20 year old sets aside coins for retirement.
The following year, the system is changed, and when he looks again after
not paying attention for a decade or two, they are gone.
6. This encourages censorship by miners for people attempting to move coins=
.
7. This has been discussed many times before and everyone is welcome to
fork bitcoin code and the block chain and convince people to follow this
chain and code.  Then you can see if you can get many people to agree that
this is a good idea.








On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever mine=
d
> are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin
> addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million
> Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is no
way
> of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin from
> circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is cappe=
d
> at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in
> circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an end.
>
> The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man's switch to
> Bitcoin addresses. The dead man's switch causes the Bitcoins assigned to
> dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed
> dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of time,
> say ten years.
>
> The calculation of the miner's reward should take into account the
> Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that miner's
> reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.
>
> Ref:
>
> http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_
source=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dico=
n>
Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_
source=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dlin=
k>
> <#m_2495265241835744459_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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End of bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 31, Issue 22
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<div dir=3D"auto">Reply to dead man&#39;s switch,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">Since this topic as gone un-technical,</div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">People can already place a timer on tran=
sactions with the script to send funds if not moved for a given period,</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">And people are responsible =
adults, trying to take ahead of every possible future human error from the =
protocol perspective looks more like french socialism than bitcoinism=C2=A0=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
Le=C2=A011 d=C3=A9c. 2017 19:32,  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev-request=
@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org</=
a>&gt; a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>Send bitcoin-dev mailing list submissions to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda=
tion.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<br>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/ma=
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<br>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than &quot;Re: Contents of bitcoin-dev digest...&quot;<br>
<br>
<br>
Today&#39;s Topics:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: BIP - Dead Man&#39;s Switch (Radoslaw Biernacki)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: BIP - Dead Man&#39;s Switch (Pieter Wuille)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A03. Re: BIP - Dead Man&#39;s Switch (Chris Riley)<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-----<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:13:26 +0100<br>
From: Radoslaw Biernacki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:radoslaw.biernacki@gmail.com=
">radoslaw.biernacki@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teweldemat@gmail.com">teweld=
emat@gmail.com</a>&gt;,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bitcoin Protocol<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Discussion &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man&#39;s Switch<br>
Message-ID:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:CADp3C4vfL8yE4C8T5nU_qpOO=
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D&quot;utf-8&quot;<br>
<br>
Aside from that such change would require a hard fork it also violates one<=
br>
of basic rules of bitcoin, which has long term consequences for miners and<=
br>
for whole Bitcoin economy. In short, after altering the supply limit it<br>
would not be &quot;bitcoin&quot; anymore.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev &lt;<=
br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever m=
ined<br>
&gt; are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin=
<br>
&gt; addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million<=
br>
&gt; Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is n=
o way<br>
&gt; of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin fro=
m<br>
&gt; circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is ca=
pped<br>
&gt; at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in<br>
&gt; circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an en=
d.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man&#39;s swi=
tch to<br>
&gt; Bitcoin addresses. The dead man&#39;s switch causes the Bitcoins assig=
ned to<br>
&gt; dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed=
<br>
&gt; dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of tim=
e,<br>
&gt; say ten years.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The calculation of the miner&#39;s reward should take into account the=
<br>
&gt; Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that mine=
r&#39;s<br>
&gt; reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Ref:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/<wbr>lost-bitcoins/</=
a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
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ists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-=
dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wb=
r>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:26:40 -0800<br>
From: Pieter Wuille &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pieter.wuille@gmail.com">pieter.w=
uille@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: Nick Pudar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nick@pudar.com">nick@pudar.com</a>&gt;=
,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bitcoin Dev<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfo=
undation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man&#39;s Switch<br>
Message-ID:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;CAPg+sBi9nYHCcN8ct=3D_<a href=3D"mailto:iqW=
uxDFU1cPwBfbfF8WPX-w%2Bkf6hzfQ@mail.gmail.com">iqWuxDFU1<wbr>cPwBfbfF8WPX-w=
+kf6hzfQ@mail.<wbr>gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D&quot;utf-8&quot;<br>
<br>
On Dec 11, 2017 10:23, &quot;Nick Pudar via bitcoin-dev&quot; &lt;<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
This topic has come up several times in recent years. While it is well<br>
intentioned, it can have devastating outcomes for people that want to save<=
br>
long term. If such a system were implemented, it would force people to move=
<br>
funds around in order to not get nullified. In that process, it introduces<=
br>
multiple opportunities for errors. Cold storage should be able to stay<br>
cold. I personally would be apprehensive about implementing this kind of a<=
br>
system.<br>
<br>
<br>
Furthermore, if it rewards miners with funds that are expired, it creates<b=
r>
terrible incentives. Miners in their best interest could choose to censor<b=
r>
transactions that move funds close to their expiration time, to increase<br=
>
their own future rewards.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
--<br>
Pieter<br>
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<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:28:03 -0500<br>
From: Chris Riley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:criley@gmail.com">criley@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;<br>
To: Teweldemedhin Aberra &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:teweldemat@gmail.com">teweld=
emat@gmail.com</a>&gt;,=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bitcoin Protocol<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Discussion &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;=
<br>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP - Dead Man&#39;s Switch<br>
Message-ID:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:CAL5BAw1ayaiD07PJ4MRqcKaX=
det5KW131en69vbw5gebWTF8nA@mail.gmail.com">CAL5BAw1ayaiD07PJ4MRqcKaXdet5<wb=
r>KW131en69vbw5gebWTF8nA@mail.<wbr>gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D&quot;utf-8&quot;<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
1. If there are 16.4 million mined and 4 million are lost, that results in<=
br>
12.4 million in circulation vs 14.4 million.<br>
2. Satoshi addressed this as have numerous other people (<br>
<a href=3D"https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D198.msg1647#msg1647" r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://bitcointalk.org/index.<wbr>php?=
topic=3D198.msg1647#msg1647</a> ) - lost coins<br>
decrease supply, increasing value of the remaining coins.<br>
3. This assumes this is a problem.=C2=A0 Bitcoin is divisible, 100 million,=
<br>
potentially more if necessary. (<br>
<a href=3D"https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Help:FAQ#How_divisible_are_bitcoins.3=
F" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/<wbr>Hel=
p:FAQ#How_divisible_are_<wbr>bitcoins.3F</a>)<br>
4. Why is it okay to steal bitcoins from people who&#39;s bitcoins have bee=
n<br>
&quot;dormant&quot; for a fixed period, 10 years in your example?<br>
5. What happens to bitcoins that, say, Hal Finney still had (if any) and he=
<br>
put in cold storage while he is in ultimate cold storage (<br>
<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(computer_scientist)#De=
ath" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<wb=
r>Hal_Finney_(computer_<wbr>scientist)#Death</a>) ?<br>
Ditto for someone, say, in a coma for 11 years, in jail for 11 years or any=
<br>
other similar event?=C2=A0 Or a 20 year old sets aside coins for retirement=
.<br>
The following year, the system is changed, and when he looks again after<br=
>
not paying attention for a decade or two, they are gone.<br>
6. This encourages censorship by miners for people attempting to move coins=
.<br>
7. This has been discussed many times before and everyone is welcome to<br>
fork bitcoin code and the block chain and convince people to follow this<br=
>
chain and code.=C2=A0 Then you can see if you can get many people to agree =
that<br>
this is a good idea.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Teweldemedhin Aberra via bitcoin-dev &lt;=
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; It is estimated that about 4 million of the about 16.4 Bitcoins ever m=
ined<br>
&gt; are lost forever because no one knows the private keys of some Bitcoin=
<br>
&gt; addresses. This effectively mean there are actually only 14.4 million<=
br>
&gt; Bitcoins in circulation even though 16.4 million are mined. There is n=
o way<br>
&gt; of eliminating the human errors that cause these losses of Bitcoin fro=
m<br>
&gt; circulation, while the number of Bitcoin that will ever be mined is ca=
pped<br>
&gt; at 21 million. This means the total number of Bitcoins that are in<br>
&gt; circulation will eventually become zero, bringing the network to an en=
d.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The solution this BIP proposes is to implementing a dead man&#39;s swi=
tch to<br>
&gt; Bitcoin addresses. The dead man&#39;s switch causes the Bitcoins assig=
ned to<br>
&gt; dormant addresses to automatically expire. A Bitcoin address is deemed=
<br>
&gt; dormant if it is not used in transactions for some fixed length of tim=
e,<br>
&gt; say ten years.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The calculation of the miner&#39;s reward should take into account the=
<br>
&gt; Bitcoins that has expired. This means there is a possibility that mine=
r&#39;s<br>
&gt; reward can increase if sufficient number of Bitcoins expire.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Ref:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/lost-bitcoins/" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://fortune.com/2017/11/25/<wbr>lost-bitcoins/</=
a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;=
utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&am=
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paign=3Dsig-<wbr>email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_<wbr>term=3Dicon</=
a>&gt; Virus-free.<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.avast.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
www.avast.com</a><br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;=
utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&am=
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om/sig-<wbr>email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_<wbr>source=3Dlink&amp;utm_cam=
paign=3Dsig-<wbr>email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_<wbr>term=3Dlink</=
a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &lt;#m_2495265241835744459_<wbr>DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-<wbr>4E2AA1F9F=
DF2&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wb=
r>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
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End of bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 31, Issue 22<br>
******************************<wbr>*************<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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