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To: James MacWhyte <macwhyte@gmail.com>,
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP39 seeds
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Another drawback I think is that people are not using it as seeds, they
just go to a wallet sw which proposes a new seed, write it somewhere, do
something with the wallet and forget about it, go to another one, create
another wallet, etc
Apparently it is not very well known even here that the probabilities
are very high to get a valid BIP39 seed even with 24 words, so, even
with a tool like yours, they can be misleaded, for example trying a few
words to replace the missing/incorrect one, get a valid seed and stay
stuck with it forever trying to play with BIP44/49 to find their keys
Probably what I am suggesting is not new (and therefore maybe not a good
suggestion): given a secret seed (a book, a document, a link, etc) and a
derivation path (an algo with secret parameter(s) to derive/order the
words and select the valid bip39 sequences), you get your BIP39 seeds
and don't have to write them
Of course we don't have to use necessarilly BIP39 for this but this is
what we have everywhere and this is what is compatible with it, then you
could use the same or a fake written "not very well hidden" BIP39 seed
to plausibly deny your real wallet
Le 25/12/2018 à 01:30, James MacWhyte a écrit :
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 2:48 PM Aymeric Vitte via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
>
> I don't see very well why it's easier to write n words that you
> cannot choose rather than a 32B BIP32 hex seed, and I have seen
> many people completely lost with their wallets because of this
>
>
> In practice it has quite a few qualities that make it a bit more
> resilient for physical (written) storage.
>
> If a few letters of a word get rubbed off or otherwise become
> illegible, it is pretty easy for a native speaker to figure out what
> the word is supposed to be. Even a non-native speaker could look
> through the word list and figure out which word fits. Missing
> characters in a hex string require more advanced brute force
> searching, which the average user isn't capable of.
>
> Additionally, having the bits grouped into words makes a more serious
> recovery easier. If you lose one entire word, it can be brute forced
> in about 5 minutes on a normal pc, even if you don't know which
> position the missing word is in (I have published a tool that does
> just this: https://jmacwhyte.github.io/recovery-phrase-recovery). If
> you are missing two words, you can brute force it in about a week
> (napkin math).
>
> If you were missing a random chunk of a hex string, I don't know how
> you'd go about brute forcing that in a timely manner.
>
> As an aside, from a UX standpoint we've seen that the 12 words don't
> *look* important so people don't take them seriously (and they get
> lost). A hex string or equivalent would look more password-y, and
> therefore would most likely be better protected by users.
>
> James
--------------B2D074D0D71ED954EAC38DC9
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<p>Another drawback I think is that people are not using it as
seeds, they just go to a wallet sw which proposes a new seed,
write it somewhere, do something with the wallet and forget about
it, go to another one, create another wallet, etc</p>
<p>Apparently it is not very well known even here that the
probabilities are very high to get a valid BIP39 seed even with 24
words, so, even with a tool like yours, they can be misleaded, for
example trying a few words to replace the missing/incorrect one,
get a valid seed and stay stuck with it forever trying to play
with BIP44/49 to find their keys</p>
<p>Probably what I am suggesting is not new (and therefore maybe not
a good suggestion): given a secret seed (a book, a document, a
link, etc) and a derivation path (an algo with secret parameter(s)
to derive/order the words and select the valid bip39 sequences),
you get your BIP39 seeds and don't have to write them</p>
<p>Of course we don't have to use necessarilly BIP39 for this but
this is what we have everywhere and this is what is compatible
with it, then you could use the same or a fake written "not very
well hidden" BIP39 seed to plausibly deny your real wallet<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 25/12/2018 à 01:30, James MacWhyte a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAH+Axy6dKDOkE6cQYZUusTUxxOSwWchOWxYh6ZkhnOgXuELaYg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Mon, Dec 24, 2018 at 2:48 PM Aymeric Vitte
via bitcoin-dev <<a
href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
I don't see very well why it's easier to write n words
that you cannot choose rather than a 32B BIP32 hex seed,
and I have seen many people completely lost with their
wallets because of this<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In practice it has quite a few qualities that make it a
bit more resilient for physical (written) storage.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If a few letters of a word get rubbed off or otherwise
become illegible, it is pretty easy for a native speaker
to figure out what the word is supposed to be. Even a
non-native speaker could look through the word list and
figure out which word fits. Missing characters in a hex
string require more advanced brute force searching, which
the average user isn't capable of.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Additionally, having the bits grouped into words makes
a more serious recovery easier. If you lose one entire
word, it can be brute forced in about 5 minutes on a
normal pc, even if you don't know which position the
missing word is in (I have published a tool that does just
this: <a
href="https://jmacwhyte.github.io/recovery-phrase-recovery"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://jmacwhyte.github.io/recovery-phrase-recovery</a>).
If you are missing two words, you can brute force it in
about a week (napkin math).<br>
<br>
If you were missing a random chunk of a hex string, I
don't know how you'd go about brute forcing that in a
timely manner.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As an aside, from a UX standpoint we've seen that the
12 words don't *look* important so people don't take them
seriously (and they get lost). A hex string or equivalent
would look more password-y, and therefore would most
likely be better protected by users.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>James</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">
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