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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 10:13:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <7f7c8320-0d14-4826-9501-0d257eab72a4n@googlegroups.com>
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 <CALiT-ZoNdW=1mdyjpy6zLgTNCJHL8fKt9svM_5GWi96HPsVQmA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Workshops and Activation for CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY
 and CHECKSIGFROMSTACK
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Hi Floppy,

Yeah, I mean it would be nice for the letter signatories to have also
put their code review along their tag names... Most of the time consensus
changes are a bit more complex than "yes" or "no" or "good" vs "evil" and
I do understand the recrimination of my fella bitcoin core hackers on
the nonsense that this kind of letter can lead to...

I do remember the Buck O'Perley comments here [0], that a gathering of all
the technical opinions could be welcome to let the wider community, beyond
the narrow "powwow" of the developers, makes its own opinion on consensus=
=20
changes.
In that spirit, in my view it would have been better for each letter=20
signatory
to explain the technical reasons, trade-offs they see, why they think CTV i=
s
technically solid, etc on their personal blog post or something else...

Anyway, I did concept ACK the BIP119 code branch (for the reasons=20
explained):
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/31989#issuecomment-3218427453

I'm not going to die on a hill for CTV to happen, but I won't also won't
die on a hill for CTV _not_ to happen. So officially, I'm in the "bored"
camp of devs on the CTV discussion.

I was there when its original author presented it to the world back in 2019=
,
and since then and so far I cannot find reasons how CTV is a technical=20
hazard
for the bitcoin network (see more caveats in my comment). Personally, I'm=
=20
not
excited for it, though as a developer engaging in consensus changes, if=20
there
are enough developers and stakeholders in the ecosystem who wish it, I'm=20
fine
with it.

Nice, for the IRC meetings, and yes I have memory of the taproot
workshop it was good, I don't think I'll be able to join the IRC
meetings, though if there are transcripts I'll try to keep an eye
on it.

Best,
Antoine
OTS hash: 87dfdb18a8a6abca5a0e4bc8b56da4d11fe0b9bd797fbb02aa8e497377637b98

[0]=20
https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/BQjnkZZajHKYBOUFAin8toHgNHhG346VUR4GQx6bSi=
2ftOuNTK1c1d4LWN4Zmr0tUg2w3xgtIZJSphBORYgWw4PPXq5pGFoZJk2Lx6AokuQ=3D@proton=
mail.com/
Le vendredi 22 ao=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 23:05:48 UTC+1, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit=
 :

> Hi Antoine,
>
>
> >  Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ tim=
e=20
> reviewing more CTV code ?
>
> Some of them have reviewed CTV earlier in other pull requests and others=
=20
> could be application developers who are interested in the use cases.
>
>
> > https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg (can=20
> transfer you the repo ownership if you wish so)
>
> Thanks for sharing the link. I found the [taproot workshops][0] repositor=
y=20
> useful as well. I will create a new repository for CTV-CSFS workshops,=20
> meetings etc. to document everything.
>
> Workshop #1
>
> Time: 28 August 2025 15:00 UTC
> Channel: #ctv-csfs-activation on libera.chat
>
> - Review and understand [BIP 119][1]
> - Create basic CTV transactions on signet
>
> [0]: https://github.com/bitcoinops/taproot-workshop
> [1]: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki
>
> /dev/fd0
> floppy disk guy
>
> On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 5:37=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Riard <antoin...@gmail.co=
m> wrote:
>
>> Hi Floppy,
>>
>> The call to review CTV has been published Jun. 9.
>>
>> On this letter, I can count ~60 names.
>>
>> Since the time of publication (2 months after), only 5 people have put a=
=20
>> code review comment on #31989.
>>
>> Among the 5 people, only 2 were letter signatories (average-gary +=20
>> stuxto).
>>
>> Why the 58 other names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ time=
=20
>> reviewing more CTV code ?
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Now, of course anyone is free to patch CTV on top of knot and go to try=
=20
>> the activation run with that.
>>
>> Personally, I still think we should aim for more neutral consensus=20
>> development process...
>>
>> This was the intent with the bitcoin contracting primitives WG, done on=
=20
>> an open IRC chan.
>>
>> https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg (can=20
>> transfer you the repo ownership if you wish so)
>>
>> Where rather to present a primitive proposal as a "done deal" from a "po=
w=20
>> wow" of experts,
>> the goal was to create a neutral online forum for discussion open to=20
>> anyone in the world
>> who self-estimate they qualify as an expert on bitcoin consensus...and=
=20
>> humbly trying to
>> do better than the mess of the 2015 - 2017 period w.r.t consensus change=
s.
>>
>> Best,
>> Antoine
>> OTS hash: 0d3c23682b630c9c85288ece8e1acae2f4a3c76254e16e36ccb6ca0fcef255=
6b
>>
>> Le lundi 18 ao=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 15:43:54 UTC+1, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit=
 :
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> IRC channel: #ctv-csfs-activation on libera.chat
>>>
>>> I [requested][0] the economic nodes to review different soft fork=20
>>> proposals and share their opinion on 5 March 2025. Four entries were ad=
ded=20
>>> to the [wiki][1] and nobody has any objections to the proposals. Some=
=20
>>> organizations do not want to publicly participate in this process to av=
oid=20
>>> politics and drama.
>>>
>>> A [letter][2] was signed on 9 June 2025 by bitcoin developers to get=20
>>> more core contributors involved in the review process. It was followed =
by a=20
>>> [proposal][3] that makes a few changes to CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY and combi=
nes=20
>>> it with CHECKSIGFROMSTACK. Personally, I don't like that TEMPLATEHASH i=
s=20
>>> restricted to taproot and don't see anything wrong with=20
>>> CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY. However, other developers may disagree with me and=
=20
>>> have different opinion. I have created an IRC channel for workshops,=20
>>> meetings, activation, etc.=20
>>>
>>> We can finalize a meeting schedule so we can use the IRC channel to mov=
e=20
>>> closer to covenants activation on bitcoin.
>>>
>>> I think BIP 8 would be a better option for the next soft fork.=20
>>> [Previously][4], some suggestions were [rejected][5] because knots was =
not=20
>>> used by a large number of users. However, things have changed since the=
n=20
>>> and [~15%][6] of nodes use knots for bitcoin.
>>>
>>> [0]: https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/kd8g8V1NVOY/m/nE2y5V66AQA=
J
>>> [1]: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Covenants_support
>>> [2]: https://ctv-csfs.com/
>>> [3]: https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/5wLThgegha4/m/iUWIZPIaCAA=
J
>>> [4]:=20
>>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5...@mail.gmai=
l.com/=20
>>> <https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5Xks1b76jSDym=
p1Bjr--4R8_v3Q@mail.gmail.com/>
>>> [5]:=20
>>> https://diyhpl.us/cgit/pi-bitcoindev/plain/cc/877bbc8de83e7aa4d2252a047=
3d05d634946b4/dev/fd0
>>> [6]: https://bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=3Dknots#network-snapshot
>>>
>>> /dev/fd0
>>> floppy disk guy
>>>
>> --=20
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s=20
>> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n=20
>> email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion visit=20
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/e0a46b30-e633-4f38-b737-a5f=
1973da901n%40googlegroups.com=20
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/e0a46b30-e633-4f38-b737-a5=
f1973da901n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>
>> .
>>
>

--=20
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; margin-bottom: var(--base-=
size-16); caret-color: rgb(31, 35, 40); color: rgb(31, 35, 40); font-family=
: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, &quot;Noto Sans&=
quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;S=
egoe UI Emoji&quot;; font-size: 16px; margin-top: 0px;">Hi Floppy,<br /><br=
 />Yeah, I mean it would be nice for the letter signatories to have also<br=
 />put their code review along their tag names... Most of the time consensu=
s<br />changes are a bit more complex than "yes" or "no" or "good" vs "evil=
" and<br />I do understand the recrimination of my fella bitcoin core hacke=
rs on<br />the nonsense that this kind of letter can lead to...<br /><br />=
I do remember the Buck O'Perley comments here [0], that a gathering of all<=
br />the technical opinions could be welcome to let the wider community, be=
yond<br />the narrow "powwow" of the developers, makes its own opinion on c=
onsensus changes.<br />In that spirit, in my view it would have been better=
 for each letter signatory<br />to explain the technical reasons, trade-off=
s they see, why they think CTV is<br />technically solid, etc on their pers=
onal blog post or something else...<br /><br />Anyway, I did concept ACK th=
e BIP119 code branch (for the reasons explained):<br />https://github.com/b=
itcoin/bitcoin/pull/31989#issuecomment-3218427453<br /><br />I'm not going =
to die on a hill for CTV to happen, but I won't also won't<br />die on a hi=
ll for CTV _not_ to happen. So officially, I'm in the "bored"<br />camp of =
devs on the CTV discussion.<br /><br />I was there when its original author=
 presented it to the world back in 2019,<br />and since then and so far I c=
annot find reasons how CTV is a technical hazard<br />for the bitcoin netwo=
rk (see more caveats in my comment). Personally, I'm not<br />excited for i=
t, though as a developer engaging in consensus changes, if there<br />are e=
nough developers and stakeholders in the ecosystem who wish it, I'm fine<br=
 />with it.<br /><br />Nice, for the IRC meetings, and yes I have memory of=
 the taproot<br />workshop it was good, I don't think I'll be able to join =
the IRC<br />meetings, though if there are transcripts I'll try to keep an =
eye<br />on it.<br /><br />Best,<br />Antoine<br />OTS hash: 87dfdb18a8a6ab=
ca5a0e4bc8b56da4d11fe0b9bd797fbb02aa8e497377637b98<br /><br />[0] https://g=
nusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/BQjnkZZajHKYBOUFAin8toHgNHhG346VUR4GQx6bSi2ftOuNTK1=
c1d4LWN4Zmr0tUg2w3xgtIZJSphBORYgWw4PPXq5pGFoZJk2Lx6AokuQ=3D@protonmail.com/=
</p><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le ve=
ndredi 22 ao=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 23:05:48 UTC+1, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit=C2=
=A0:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8=
ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Hi Antoine,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>&gt; =C2=A0Why the 58 ot=
her names on the letter have not spent _their_ _free_ time reviewing more C=
TV code ?<br><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Some of them have reviewed CTV earl=
ier in other pull requests and others could be application developers who a=
re interested in the use cases.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>&gt; <a href=
=3D"https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg" target=3D"=
_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url=
?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-w=
g&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw2508avI8mQm=
gXDRNAvD13W">https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg</a=
> (can transfer you the repo ownership if you wish so)<br><br></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Thanks for sharing the link. I found the [taproot workshops][0] r=
epository useful as well. I will create a new repository for CTV-CSFS works=
hops, meetings etc. to document everything.<br><br>Workshop #1<br><br>Time:=
 28 August 2025 15:00 UTC<br>Channel: #ctv-csfs-activation on libera.chat<b=
r><br>- Review and understand [BIP 119][1]<br>- Create basic CTV transactio=
ns on signet<br><br>[0]: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoinops/taproot-w=
orkshop" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https:/=
/www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/bitcoinops/taproot-w=
orkshop&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw2OVoL=
XY5MTxZbR59z3hVnq">https://github.com/bitcoinops/taproot-workshop</a><br>[1=
]: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawik=
i" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.g=
oogle.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/b=
ip-0119.mediawiki&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000&amp;usg=3DA=
OvVaw37scYfriCpXb_xJoDYmJF0">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bi=
p-0119.mediawiki</a><br><br>/dev/fd0<br>floppy disk guy</div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 5:37=E2=80=AFAM Antoine Riard &lt;<a h=
ref data-email-masked rel=3D"nofollow">antoin...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">Hi Floppy,<br><br>The call to review CTV has been published=
 Jun. 9.<br><br>On this letter, I can count ~60 names.<br><br>Since the tim=
e of publication (2 months after), only 5 people have put a code review com=
ment on #31989.<br><br>Among the 5 people, only 2 were letter signatories (=
average-gary + stuxto).<br><br>Why the 58 other names on the letter have no=
t spent _their_ _free_ time reviewing more CTV code ?<br><br>...<br><br>Now=
, of course anyone is free to patch CTV on top of knot and go to try the ac=
tivation run with that.<br><br>Personally, I still think we should aim for =
more neutral consensus development process...<br><br>This was the intent wi=
th the bitcoin contracting primitives WG, done on an open IRC chan.<br><br>=
<a href=3D"https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitives-wg" tar=
get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.=
com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primi=
tives-wg&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw2508=
avI8mQmgXDRNAvD13W">https://github.com/ariard/bitcoin-contracting-primitive=
s-wg</a> (can transfer you the repo ownership if you wish so)<br><br>Where =
rather to present a primitive proposal as a &quot;done deal&quot; from a &q=
uot;pow wow&quot; of experts,<br>the goal was to create a neutral online fo=
rum for discussion open to anyone in the world<br>who self-estimate they qu=
alify as an expert on bitcoin consensus...and humbly trying to<br>do better=
 than the mess of the 2015 - 2017 period w.r.t consensus changes.<br><br>Be=
st,<br>Antoine<br>OTS hash: 0d3c23682b630c9c85288ece8e1acae2f4a3c76254e16e3=
6ccb6ca0fcef2556b<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">Le lundi 18 ao=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 15:43:54 UTC+1, /dev /fd0=
 a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi everyone,<br><br>IRC channel: #ctv-csfs-activation=
 on libera.chat<br><br>I [requested][0] the economic nodes to review differ=
ent soft fork proposals and share their opinion on 5 March 2025. Four entri=
es were added to the [wiki][1] and nobody has any objections to the proposa=
ls. Some organizations do not want to publicly participate in this process =
to avoid politics and drama.<br><br>A [letter][2] was signed on 9 June 2025=
 by bitcoin developers to get more core contributors involved in the review=
 process. It was followed by a [proposal][3] that makes a few changes to CH=
ECKTEMPLATEVERIFY and combines it with CHECKSIGFROMSTACK. Personally, I don=
&#39;t like that TEMPLATEHASH is restricted to taproot and don&#39;t see an=
ything wrong with CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY. However, other developers may disagr=
ee with me and have different opinion. I have created an IRC channel for wo=
rkshops, meetings, activation, etc. <br><br>We can finalize a meeting sched=
ule so we can use the IRC channel to move closer to covenants activation on=
 bitcoin.<br><br>I think BIP 8 would be a better option for the next soft f=
ork. [Previously][4], some suggestions were [rejected][5] because knots was=
 not used by a large number of users. However, things have changed since th=
en and [~15%][6] of nodes use knots for bitcoin.<br><br>[0]: <a href=3D"htt=
ps://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/kd8g8V1NVOY/m/nE2y5V66AQAJ" rel=3D"no=
follow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/ur=
l?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/kd8g8V1NVOY/m/nE=
2y5V66AQAJ&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw1W=
dwbsbOczpcw5Ai1jdfnz">https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/kd8g8V1NVOY/=
m/nE2y5V66AQAJ</a><br>[1]: <a href=3D"https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Covenants_=
support" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https:/=
/www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Covenants_su=
pport&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw0lXBm56=
2bbGBBfV5Qz1Bks">https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Covenants_support</a><br>[2]: <=
a href=3D"https://ctv-csfs.com/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-sa=
feredirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://ctv-csf=
s.com/&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw1Ohtlx=
DYun9I2htSYPNrnB">https://ctv-csfs.com/</a><br>[3]: <a href=3D"https://grou=
ps.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/5wLThgegha4/m/iUWIZPIaCAAJ" rel=3D"nofollow" t=
arget=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr=
&amp;q=3Dhttps://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/5wLThgegha4/m/iUWIZPIaCAA=
J&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3bAPqfXaYBe=
xFIc4fY3PQL">https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/5wLThgegha4/m/iUWIZPI=
aCAAJ</a><br>[4]: <a href=3D"https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_Mb=
XP8o3kWmaUZ5Xks1b76jSDymp1Bjr--4R8_v3Q@mail.gmail.com/" rel=3D"nofollow" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&=
amp;q=3Dhttps://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5Xks1b76jS=
Dymp1Bjr--4R8_v3Q@mail.gmail.com/&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D175640105493=
0000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3S6BOlWF1vwMEHzfkx1ElO">https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoind=
ev/CAFvNmHS4s_MbXP8o3kWmaUZ5...@mail.gmail.com/</a><br>[5]: <a href=3D"http=
s://diyhpl.us/cgit/pi-bitcoindev/plain/cc/877bbc8de83e7aa4d2252a0473d05d634=
946b4/dev/fd0" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"h=
ttps://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://diyhpl.us/cgit/pi-bitcoin=
dev/plain/cc/877bbc8de83e7aa4d2252a0473d05d634946b4/dev/fd0&amp;source=3Dgm=
ail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw1nS4jY7za2WCEh454CBZI2">http=
s://diyhpl.us/cgit/pi-bitcoindev/plain/cc/877bbc8de83e7aa4d2252a0473d05d634=
946b4/dev/fd0</a><br>[6]:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=3Dkn=
ots#network-snapshot" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirectu=
rl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://bitnodes.io/nodes/=
?q%3Dknots%23network-snapshot&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1756401054930000=
&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3cXfI39Ov7vaV2xdrSwevh">https://bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=3Dkno=
ts#network-snapshot</a><br><br>/dev/fd0<br>floppy disk guy</div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

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