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From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 13:24:28 -0400
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To: Tom Harding <tomh@thinlink.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] deterministic transaction expiration
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--089e0153840cda57c104fff93faa
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

That won't necessarily work through large reorgs.  You don't want to create
a situation where a miner cannot mine a previously mined transactions.



On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Tom Harding <tomh@thinlink.com> wrote:

>
> Today we have first-eligible-height (nLockTime), and mempool expiration
> measured from this height would work for the goals being discussed, no fork
> or protocol rev.
>
> With first-eligible-height and last-eligible-height, creator could choose
> a lifetime shorter than the max,  and in addition, lock the whole thing
> until some point in the future.
>
>
>
> On 8/6/2014 9:15 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>
> A fork is not necessarily required, if you are talking about information
> that deals primarily with pre-consensus mempool behavior.  You can make a
> "network TX" with some information that is digitally signed, yet discarded
> before it reaches miners.
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA256
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 August 2014 08:17:02 GMT-07:00, Christian Decker <
>> decker.christian@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >+1 for the new field, overloading fields with new meaning is definitely
>> >not
>> >a good idea.
>>
>>  To add a new field the best way to do it is create a new, parallel, tx
>> format where fields are committed by merkle radix tree in an extensible and
>> provable way. You'd then commit to that tree with a mandatory OP_RETURN
>> output in the last txout, or with a new merkle root.
>>
>> Changing the tx format itself in a hard-fork is needlessly disruptive,
>> and in this case, wastes opportunities for improvement.
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>> sJKN
>> =oPSo
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Garzik
> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Infragistics Professional
> Build stunning WinForms apps today!
> Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
> Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing listBitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Infragistics Professional
> Build stunning WinForms apps today!
> Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
> Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
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>


-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/

--089e0153840cda57c104fff93faa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">That won&#39;t necessarily work through large reorgs.=C2=
=A0 You don&#39;t want to create a situation where a miner cannot mine a pr=
eviously mined transactions.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Tom Harding <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:tomh@thinlink.com" target=3D"_blank">tomh@thinlink.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <br>
    Today we have first-eligible-height (nLockTime), and mempool
    expiration measured from this height would work for the goals being
    discussed, no fork or protocol rev.<br>
    <br>
    With first-eligible-height and last-eligible-height, creator could
    choose a lifetime shorter than the max,=C2=A0 and in addition, lock the
    whole thing until some point in the future.<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 8/6/2014 9:15 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:<br>
    </div>
    </div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">A fork is not necessarily required, if you are
        talking about information that deals primarily with
        pre-consensus mempool behavior.=C2=A0 You can make a &quot;network =
TX&quot;
        with some information that is digitally signed, yet discarded
        before it reaches miners.<br>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Peter
          Todd <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pete@petertodd.org" =
target=3D"_blank">pete@petertodd.org</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">-----BEGIN
            PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br>
            Hash: SHA256<br>
            <div><br>
              <br>
              <br>
              On 6 August 2014 08:17:02 GMT-07:00, Christian Decker &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:decker.christian@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">decker.christi=
an@gmail.com</a>&gt;
              wrote:<br>
              &gt;+1 for the new field, overloading fields with new
              meaning is definitely<br>
              &gt;not<br>
              &gt;a good idea.<br>
              <br>
            </div>
            To add a new field the best way to do it is create a new,
            parallel, tx format where fields are committed by merkle
            radix tree in an extensible and provable way. You&#39;d then
            commit to that tree with a mandatory OP_RETURN output in the
            last txout, or with a new merkle root.<br>
            <br>
            Changing the tx format itself in a hard-fork is needlessly
            disruptive, and in this case, wastes opportunities for
            improvement.<br>
            -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
            Version: APG v1.1.1<br>
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            =3DoPSo<br>
            -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
        <br clear=3D"all">
        <br>
        -- <br>
        Jeff Garzik<br>
        Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist<br>
        BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitpay.com/" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://bitpay.com/</a>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      </div></div><div class=3D""><pre>------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.=20
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
<a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D153845071&amp;iu=
=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam=
pad/clk?id=3D153845071&amp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a></pre>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a>
</pre>
    </div></blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
Infragistics Professional<br>
Build stunning WinForms apps today!<br>
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.<br>
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.<br>
<a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D153845071&amp;iu=
=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam=
pad/clk?id=3D153845071&amp;iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br>__________________=
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" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Jeff Garzik<br>Bitc=
oin core developer and open source evangelist<br>BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitpay.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://bitpay.com=
/</a>
</div>

--089e0153840cda57c104fff93faa--