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From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 11:15:18 -0400
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a
 Neutral Competent Entity
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* ACK on moving away from SourceForge mailing lists - though only once a
community-welcomed replacement is up and running

* ACK on using LF as a mailing infrastructure provider

* Research secure mailing list models, for bitcoin-security.  The list is
not ultra high security - we all use PGP for that - but it would perhaps be
nice to find some spiffy cryptosystem where mailing list participants
individually hold keys & therefore access.


On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. <wtogami@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Discomfort with Sourceforge
>
> For a while now people have been expressing concern about Sourceforge's
> continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.  Downloads were moved
> completely to bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF
> project account.  The company's behavior and perceived stability have bee=
n
> growing to be increasingly questionable.
>
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy=
_ads_and_installer
>
> November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/
>
> May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads
>
> http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194
>
> June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads.
>
> When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most
> people agreed it would be a good idea to move.  Someone always suggests
> Google Groups as the replacement host.  Google is quickly shot down as to=
o
> controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more difficult
> question as to who else should host it.  Realizing this is not so simple,
> discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up.
>
>
> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/19431=
27.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607
>
> Somebody brought it up again this past week.
>
> It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to
> continue to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isn=E2=80=99t much they co=
uld do to
> screw it up.  I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a
> gesture that we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.  There a=
re
> also some benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to
> professionally maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to
> the content.
>
> Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity
>
> Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would be
> politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or orgs to
> host due to questions it would raise about perceived political control.
> For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the
> inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure and
> dev list under their own name.  Even if what they published was 100%
> technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in our
> dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to appearances
> and it would have easily gone nowhere.
>
> I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was
> approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to be =
a
> generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can build up=
on
> and use.  We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs that already ho=
st
> various open source infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or the
> Linux Foundation.  Google is too controversial in this community, and the
> IETF is seen as possibly too politically fractured.  The Linux Foundation
> hosts a bunch of infrastructure lists
> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo> and it seems that
> nobody in the Open Source industry considers them to be particularly
> objectionable.  I talked with LF about the idea of hosting generic
> Bitcoin-related infrastructure development lists.  They agreed as OSS
> infrastructure dev is already within their charter, so early this week
> sidechains-dev list began hosting there.
>
> From the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a
> great fit.  Why?  While they are interested in supporting general open
> source development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.  In addition
> to neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.  They have
> full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailma=
n
> server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3
> <http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3>, which means mailing lists would benefit
> from the improved archive browser.  I am not personally familiar with
> HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable non-profit entity who
> will competently maintain and improve things like their Mailman deploymen=
t
> (a huge improvement over the stagnant Sourceforge).  It seems that LF wou=
ld
> be competent, neutral place to host dev lists for the long-term.
>
> To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion list.  Th=
e
> LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no single entity
> should.
>
> Proposed Action Plan
>
>
>    -
>
>    Discuss this openly within this community.  Above is one example of a
>    great neutral and competent host.  If the technical leaders here can a=
gree
>    to move to a particular neutral host then we do it.
>    -
>
>    Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.  We
>    import the entire list archive into the new host's archives for user
>    convenience.
>    -
>
>    http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/  Kill bitcoin-list and
>    bitcoin-test.  Very few people actually use it.  Actually, let's delet=
e the
>    entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued existence serves n=
o
>    purpose and it only confuses people who find it.  By deletion, nobody =
has
>    to monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident
>    <https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=3Dnews_item&px=3DMTc4Mzg> or G=
IMP-type
>    hijacking <https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/>?
>    -
>
>    The toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing
>    the subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have a ten=
dency
>    to upset people.
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Warren Togami
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>


--=20
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/

--047d7b33d8125bb8fb05187bd08d
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>* ACK on moving away from SourceForge mailing lists -=
 though only once a community-welcomed replacement is up and running</div><=
div><br></div>* ACK on using LF as a mailing infrastructure provider<div><b=
r></div><div>* Research secure mailing list models, for bitcoin-security.=
=C2=A0 The list is not ultra high security - we all use PGP for that - but =
it would perhaps be nice to find some spiffy cryptosystem where mailing lis=
t participants individually hold keys &amp; therefore access.</div><div><br=
></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
un, Jun 14, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:wtogami@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">wtogami@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><p d=
ir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;=
vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">=
Discomfort with Sourceforge</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1=
.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.666666666=
6667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;backg=
round-color:transparent">For a while now people have been expressing concer=
n about Sourceforge&#39;s continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list=
.=C2=A0 Downloads were moved completely to <a href=3D"http://bitcoin.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">bitcoin.org</a> after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of th=
e SF project account.=C2=A0 The company&#39;s behavior and perceived stabil=
ity have been growing to be increasingly questionable.</span></p><br><p dir=
=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span =
style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:base=
line;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent"><a href=3D"http://w=
ww.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_ads_and_i=
nstaller" target=3D"_blank">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_du=
mps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_ads_and_installer</a></span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" s=
tyle=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white=
-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">November 2013: GIMP flees Sou=
rceForge over dodgy ads and installer</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"lin=
e-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14=
.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-=
wrap;background-color:transparent"><a href=3D"https://lwn.net/Articles/6461=
18/" target=3D"_blank">https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/</a></span></p><p di=
r=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:bas=
eline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">May 28th, 2015: So=
urceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads</span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=
=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-=
size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent"><a href=3D"http://seclists.org/nm=
ap-dev/2015/q2/194" target=3D"_blank">http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/=
194</a></span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;m=
argin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:A=
rial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transpar=
ent">June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap&#39;s old site and downloads=
.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;mar=
gin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Ari=
al;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparen=
t">When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most peo=
ple agreed it would be a good idea to move.=C2=A0 Someone always suggests G=
oogle Groups as the replacement host.=C2=A0 Google is quickly shot down as =
too controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more difficult =
question as to who else should host it.=C2=A0 Realizing this is not so simp=
le, discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up.</sp=
an></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-b=
ottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;ve=
rtical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent"><a=
 href=3D"http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/threa=
d/1943127.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607" target=3D"_blank">http://sou=
rceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/1943127.DBnVxmfOI=
h%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607</a></span></p><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-heigh=
t:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.666666=
6666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;ba=
ckground-color:transparent">Somebody brought it up again this past week.</s=
pan></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-=
bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;v=
ertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">I=
t seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to continue =
to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isn=E2=80=99t much they could do to s=
crew it up.=C2=A0 I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a =
gesture that we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.=C2=A0 Ther=
e are also some benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to pr=
ofessionally maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to the =
content.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:=
0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-fam=
ily:Arial;font-weight:bold;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;bac=
kground-color:transparent">Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Com=
petent Entity</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin=
-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;fon=
t-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-colo=
r:transparent">Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where=
 it would be politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies =
or orgs to host due to questions it would raise about perceived political c=
ontrol.=C2=A0 For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox=
 was the inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastruct=
ure and dev list under their own name.=C2=A0 Even if what they published wa=
s 100% technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in o=
ur dimension, most people wouldn&#39;t have trusted it merely due to appear=
ances and it would have easily gone nowhere.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" s=
tyle=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white=
-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">I had a similar thought proce=
ss last week when sidechains code was approaching release. Sidechains, like=
 Bitcoin itself, are intended to be a generic piece of infrastructure (like=
 ethernet?) that anyone can build upon and use.=C2=A0 We thought about Goog=
le Groups or existing orgs that already host various open source infrastruc=
ture discussion lists like the IETF or the Linux Foundation.=C2=A0 Google i=
s too controversial in this community, and the IETF is seen as possibly too=
 politically fractured.=C2=A0 The Linux Foundation hosts a </span><a href=
=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo" style=3D"text-decor=
ation:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;f=
ont-family:Arial;text-decoration:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">bunch of infrastructure lists</s=
pan></a><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;verti=
cal-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent"> and =
it seems that nobody in the Open Source industry considers them to be parti=
cularly objectionable.=C2=A0 I talked with LF about the idea of hosting gen=
eric Bitcoin-related infrastructure development lists.=C2=A0 They agreed as=
 OSS infrastructure dev is already within their charter, so early this week=
 sidechains-dev list began hosting there.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" styl=
e=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">From the perspective of our comm=
unity, for bitcoin-dev it seems like a great fit.=C2=A0 Why?=C2=A0 While th=
ey are interested in supporting general open source development, the LF has=
 literally zero stake in this.=C2=A0 In addition to neutrality, they seem t=
o be suitable as a </span><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-=
family:Arial;font-weight:bold;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;=
background-color:transparent">competent</span><span style=3D"font-size:14.6=
666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wr=
ap;background-color:transparent"> host.=C2=A0 They have full-time sysadmins=
 maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailman server. They are so=
on upgrading to </span><a href=3D"http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3" style=3D"t=
ext-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:14.66666666=
66667px;font-family:Arial;text-decoration:underline;vertical-align:baseline=
;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">Mailman 3</span></a><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:b=
aseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">, which means ma=
iling lists would benefit from the improved archive browser.=C2=A0 I am not=
 personally familiar with HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stab=
le non-profit entity who will competently maintain and improve things like =
their Mailman deployment (a huge improvement over the stagnant Sourceforge)=
.=C2=A0 It seems that LF would be competent, neutral place to host dev list=
s for the long-term.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38=
;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.666666666666=
7px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;backgrou=
nd-color:transparent">To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the =
discussion list.=C2=A0 The LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Projec=
t, as no single entity should.</span></p><br><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-h=
eight:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.66=
66666666667px;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;vertical-align:baseline;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">Proposed Action Plan</span=
></p><br><ul style=3D"margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><li dir=3D"ltr" sty=
le=3D"list-style-type:disc;font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;v=
ertical-align:baseline;background-color:transparent"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=
=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-=
size:14.6666666666667px;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;backgr=
ound-color:transparent">Discuss this openly within this community.=C2=A0 Ab=
ove is one example of a great neutral and competent host.=C2=A0 If the tech=
nical leaders here can agree to move to a particular neutral host then we d=
o it.</span></p></li><li dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"list-style-type:disc;font-siz=
e:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;background-c=
olor:transparent"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;m=
argin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;vertical-alig=
n:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">Migration: Th=
e current list admins become the new list admins.=C2=A0 We import the entir=
e list archive into the new host&#39;s archives for user convenience.</span=
></p></li><li dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"list-style-type:disc;font-size:14.666666=
6666667px;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);vertical-align:baseline;backgr=
ound-color:transparent"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top=
:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;color:r=
gb(34,34,34);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:=
transparent"><a href=3D"http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/" target=
=3D"_blank">http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/</a> =C2=A0Kill bitcoi=
n-list and bitcoin-test.=C2=A0 Very few people actually use it.=C2=A0 Actua=
lly, let&#39;s delete the entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continu=
ed existence serves no purpose and it only confuses people who find it.=C2=
=A0 By deletion, nobody has to monitor it for a repeat of the </span><a hre=
f=3D"https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=3Dnews_item&amp;px=3DMTc4Mzg" s=
tyle=3D"text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:14=
.6666666666667px;text-decoration:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">Sept 2014 hacking incident</span=
></a><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;color:rgb(34,34,34);vertic=
al-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent"> or </=
span><a href=3D"https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/" style=3D"text-decoration:=
none" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666666667px;text-de=
coration:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;background-=
color:transparent">GIMP-type hijacking</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:1=
4.6666666666667px;color:rgb(34,34,34);vertical-align:baseline;white-space:p=
re-wrap;background-color:transparent">?</span></p></li><li dir=3D"ltr" styl=
e=3D"list-style-type:disc;font-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;ve=
rtical-align:baseline;background-color:transparent"><p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D=
"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:14.6666666666667px;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;backgroun=
d-color:transparent">The toughest question would be the appropriateness of =
auto-importing the subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports =
have a tendency to upset people.</span></p></li></ul><br><p dir=3D"ltr" sty=
le=3D"line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:14.6666666666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-s=
pace:pre-wrap;background-color:transparent">Thoughts?</span></p><span class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><span style=3D"font-size:14.6666666=
666667px;font-family:Arial;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;bac=
kground-color:transparent">Warren Togami</span></font></span></span></div>
<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/=
listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature">Jeff Garzik<br>Bitcoin core developer and open sourc=
e evangelist<br>BitPay, Inc. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://bitpay.=
com/" target=3D"_blank">https://bitpay.com/</a></div>
</div>

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