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From: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
In-Reply-To: <08078429-089f-9315-2f76-a08121c5378c@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 16:12:03 -0700
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To: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Updating the Scaling Roadmap
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Paul,

There is a difference between replying to an email, and addressing the =
issues that were brought up in it.

I did read your reply, and I chose not to respond to it because it did =
not address anything I said.

Here's an example:

> It would not be accurate to say that miners have "total" control. =
Miners
> do control the destination of withdrawals, but they do not control the
> withdrawal-duration nor the withdrawal-frequency.
>=20
> So, if miners wish to 'steal' from a sidechain, they _can_ initiate a
> theft, but they can not change the fact that their malfeasance will be
> [a] obvious, and [b] on display for a long period of time.

Here, you admit that the security of the sidechains allows miners to =
steal bitcoins, something they cannot do currently.

You next tried to equate three different types of theft, what you called =
"Classic Theft", "Channel Theft", and "Drivechain Theft", saying:

> I do not think that any of the three stands out as being categorically
> worse than the others

To anyone who understands bitcoin, there is a very clear, unmistakeable =
difference between double-spending ("Classic Theft"), and *ownership* of =
the private key controlling the bitcoins.

Similarly, to anyone who understands bitcoin, there is also a very =
clear, unmistakeable difference between censorship ("Channel Theft"), =
and *ownership* of the private key controlling the bitcoins.

The entire email was a very long-form way of admitting to all of the =
issues that were raised in the previous email, while making it sound =
like you had addressed the issues.

I am not sure how else to respond to that email, given that none of the =
issues were really addressed.

Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's security =
guarantees. This you have not denied.

There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's security in such a dramatic =
fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.

Kind regards,
Greg Slepak

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.

> On Jul 11, 2017, at 3:57 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com =
<mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> On 7/11/2017 6:41 PM, Tao Effect wrote:
>> Dear Paul,
>>=20
>> Drivechain has several issues that you've acknowledged but have not,
>> IMO, adequately (at all really) addressed [1].
>=20
> I replied to your email at length, at [2]. You should read that email,
> and then reply to it with your outstanding objections, if you still =
have
> them (per the usual customs of a mailing list).
>=20
> [2]
> =
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014609.h=
tml =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014609.=
html>
>=20
>> Adopting DC would be an irreversible course of action,
>=20
> This is false -- it is easily reversible with a second soft fork.
>=20
> Also, I would say to everyone that, (in my opinion as the OP) this
> conversation will go off-topic if it veers exclusively into =
'drivechain
> review'.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_046A9F10-1EF7-4F5F-BAF0-E5FEF1B8EBAA
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html=
 charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Paul,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There=
 is a difference between replying to an email, and addressing the issues =
that were brought up in it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">I did read your reply, and I chose not to respond to it =
because it did not address anything I said.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Here's an example:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">It =
would not be accurate to say that miners have "total" control. Miners<br =
class=3D"">do control the destination of withdrawals, but they do not =
control the<br class=3D"">withdrawal-duration nor the =
withdrawal-frequency.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So, if miners wish to =
'steal' from a sidechain, they _can_ initiate a<br class=3D"">theft, but =
they can not change the fact that their malfeasance will be<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">[a] obvious, and [b] on =
display for a long period of time.</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D"">Here, you admit =
that the security of the sidechains allows miners to steal bitcoins, =
something they cannot do currently.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You next tried to equate three =
different types of theft, what you called "Classic Theft", "Channel =
Theft", and "Drivechain Theft", saying:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I do not think that any of the three stands =
out as being categorically</div><div class=3D"">worse than the =
others</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div class=3D"">To anyone who =
understands bitcoin, there is a very clear, unmistakeable difference =
between double-spending ("Classic Theft"), and *ownership* of the =
private key controlling the bitcoins.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Similarly, to anyone who understands =
bitcoin, there is also a very clear, unmistakeable difference between =
censorship ("Channel Theft"), and *ownership* of the private key =
controlling the bitcoins.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The entire email was a very long-form way of admitting to all =
of the issues that were raised in the previous email, while making it =
sound like you had addressed the issues.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am not sure how else to respond to =
that email, given that none of the issues were really =
addressed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's =
security guarantees. This you have not denied.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's =
security in such a dramatic fashion. Better options are being worked on, =
they just take time.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Kind regards,</div><div class=3D"">Greg Slepak</div><div =
class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that you are not =
comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 11, 2017, at 3:57 PM, Paul Sztorc &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" class=3D"">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 7/11/2017 6:41 PM, Tao Effect wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Dear Paul,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Drivechain has several issues that you've =
acknowledged but have not,<br class=3D"">IMO, adequately (at all really) =
addressed [1].<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I replied to =
your email at length, at [2]. You should read that email,<br =
class=3D"">and then reply to it with your outstanding objections, if you =
still have<br class=3D"">them (per the usual customs of a mailing =
list).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">[2]<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/=
014609.html" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-Ju=
ne/014609.html</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Adopting DC would be an irreversible course of action,<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">This is false -- it is easily =
reversible with a second soft fork.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Also, I =
would say to everyone that, (in my opinion as the OP) this<br =
class=3D"">conversation will go off-topic if it veers exclusively into =
'drivechain<br class=3D"">review'.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Paul<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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