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From: Cloud Strife <quantumas3@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 23:31:00 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHeORg+b=2j9zTFeWEmxWBBQ584oSXpN6t0ujnvbAteWLSbJ3Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: James MacWhyte <macwhyte@gmail.com>, 
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future
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Barrier to entry in PoW is matter for hardware and energy is permissionless
and exist all over the universe, permissionless cost which exists for
everyone no matter who because it's unforgeable.

Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous owner of
a token for you to have it via transfer or sale, both choices they never
have to make since there are no continuous costs with producing blocks
forcing it. A permission is an infinitely high barrier to entry if the
previous owner, like the premining party, refuses to give up the token they
control.

You're skipping the part where you depend on a permission of a central
party in control of the authority token before you can produce blocks on
your rasberry Pi.

Proof of stake is not in any possible way relevant to permissionless
protocols, and thus not possibly relevant to decentralized protocols where
control must be distributed to independent (i.e. permissionless) parties.

There's nothing of relevance to discuss and this has been figured out long
long ago.

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy

https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-stake-e70b12b988ca




On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:13 AM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

>
> @Lloyd wrote:
>
> Of course in reality no one wants to keep their coin holding keys online
>> so in Alogorand you can authorize a set of "participation keys"[1] that
>> will be used to create blocks on your coin holding key's behalf.
>> Hopefully you've spotted the problem.
>> You can send your participation keys to any malicious party with a nice
>> website (see random example [2]) offering you a good return.
>> Damn it's still Proof-of-SquareSpace!
>>
>
> I believe we are talking about a comparison to PoW, correct? If you want
> to mine PoW, you need to buy expensive hardware and configure it to work,
> and wait a long time to get any return by solo mining. Or you can join a
> mining pool, which might use your hashing power for nefarious purposes. Or
> you might skip the hardware all together and fall for some "cloud mining"
> scheme with a pretty website and a high rate of advertised return. So as
> you can see, Proof-of-SquareSpace exists in PoW as well!
>
> The PoS equivalent of buying mining hardware is setting up your own
> validator and not outsourcing that to anyone else. So both PoW and PoS have
> the professional/expert way of participating, and the fraud-prone, amateur
> way of participating. The only difference is, with PoS the
> professional/expert way is accessible to anyone with a raspberry Pi and a
> web connection, which is a much lower barrier to entry than PoW.
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Barrier to entry in PoW is matter for har=
dware and energy is permissionless and exist all over the universe, permiss=
ionless=C2=A0cost which exists for everyone no matter who because it&#39;s =
unforgeable.<div><br></div><div>Barrier to entry in PoS is being given perm=
ission by the previous owner of a token for you to have it via transfer or =
sale, both choices they never have to make since there are no continuous=C2=
=A0costs with producing blocks forcing it. A permission is an infinitely hi=
gh barrier to entry if the previous owner, like the premining party, refuse=
s to give up the token they control.</div><div><br></div><div>You&#39;re sk=
ipping the part where you depend on a permission of a central party in cont=
rol of the authority token before you can produce blocks on your rasberry=
=C2=A0Pi.</div><div><br></div><div>Proof of stake is not in any possible wa=
y relevant to permissionless protocols, and thus not possibly relevant to d=
ecentralized protocols where control must be distributed to independent (i.=
e. permissionless) parties.</div><div><br></div><div>There&#39;s nothing=C2=
=A0of relevance to discuss and this has been figured out long long ago.</di=
v><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-s=
ystem/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin=
-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><a hre=
f=3D"https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-sta=
ke-e70b12b988ca">https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-=
proof-of-stake-e70b12b988ca</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_attr">On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:13 AM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lis=
ts.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"all"><=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>@Lloyd wrote:</div><div><br></di=
v></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Of course in reality no one wa=
nts to keep their coin holding keys online so in Alogorand you can authoriz=
e a set of &quot;participation keys&quot;[1] that will be used to create bl=
ocks on your coin holding key&#39;s behalf.<br>Hopefully you&#39;ve spotted=
 the problem.<br>You can send your participation keys to any malicious part=
y with a nice website (see random example [2]) offering you a good return.<=
br>Damn it&#39;s still Proof-of-SquareSpace!<br></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>I believe we are talking about a comparison to PoW, correct? If=
 you want to mine PoW, you need to buy expensive hardware and configure it =
to work, and wait a long time to get any return by solo mining. Or you can =
join a mining pool, which might use your hashing power for nefarious purpos=
es. Or you might skip the hardware all together and fall for some &quot;clo=
ud mining&quot; scheme with a pretty website and a high rate of advertised =
return. So as you can see, Proof-of-SquareSpace exists in PoW as well!</div=
><div><br></div><div>The PoS equivalent of buying mining hardware is settin=
g up your own validator and not outsourcing that to anyone else. So both Po=
W and PoS have the professional/expert way of participating, and the fraud-=
prone, amateur way of participating. The only difference is, with PoS the p=
rofessional/expert way is accessible to anyone with a raspberry Pi and a we=
b connection, which is a much lower barrier to entry than PoW.</div></div><=
/div>
_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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