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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev]
	=?utf-8?q?R=C4=83spuns=3A__Personal_opinion_on_the_?=
	=?utf-8?q?fee_market_from_a_worried_local_trader?=
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> When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee =
market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.

I believe that pretty well sums up where we=E2=80=99re headed if =
transaction rate is artificially limited, whether that be by maximum =
block size limit or something else.  A fee market will necessarily =
include more than just Bitcoin.  The reality is it=E2=80=99s very easy =
to trade value across different blockchains, and thus a fee market will =
bleed value from Bitcoin and give it to alternative blockchains.  If =
Bitcoin=E2=80=99s blocks are at maximum capacity, people will exchange =
for something that allows them to transact with a lesser fee, then make =
the desired payment.  This adds value to the alternative blockchain and =
removes it from Bitcoin.

Anyone thinking the fee market can be restrained to Bitcoin alone is =
mistaken.



From: Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:09 AM
To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=20
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] R=C4=83spuns: Personal opinion on the fee market =
from a worried local trader

I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let me =
rephrase it for you,

People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin =
transactions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees =
that establish the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin =
transactions. The people are free to use they money for whatever they =
like, but you should understand that Bitcoin transactions are not free.

I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would be =
the first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam or gamble, =
but they would have to pay for it.

When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee market, =
they would be free to use any altcoin they want.


Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more important =
players will remain, those that need it the most. The other players are =
free to use whatever altcoin they wish.


=C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon =
<gubatron@gmail.com> a scris:




"the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. The =
people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."

so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don't =
need Bitcoin.
Who are you to say what people need to use money for?=20
This statement goes against the freedom of decentralization and =
financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to provide.

It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit, and that =
requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's simple =
physics, other time wait times will become unbearable for those not =
willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean =
bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless.




http://twitter.com/gubatron


On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

  Hello,

  I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees would =
scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferring bank =
transfers or other payment methods. This does not make sense for me. If =
some users leave, then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down and so =
do the fees. The others remain.

  Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand for =
bitcoin transactions and the available supply (given by the block size). =
The fee is the price that finds this equilibrium.

  If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the =
spammers, probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people =
transacting very low amounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin =
would remain.

  Please allow this fee market to form...

  In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run =
Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my best to tell =
everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code. If Bitcoin =
succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the coins and leave. =
Nothing is for free.

  I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards =
expressing my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader, computer =
engineer, with a reasonable understanding of free markets. And I'm =
running only one full node.

  Kind regards,
  Valentin



  _______________________________________________
  bitcoin-dev mailing list
  bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
  https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev








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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV><FONT face=3DHelvetica><FONT style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&gt; When a =
category of=20
users would get priced out because of the fee market, they would be free =
to use=20
any altcoin they want.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica>I believe that pretty well sums up =
where we=E2=80=99re=20
headed if transaction rate is artificially limited, whether that be by =
maximum=20
block size limit or something else.&nbsp; A fee market will necessarily =
include=20
more than just Bitcoin.&nbsp; The reality is it=E2=80=99s very easy to =
trade value=20
across different blockchains, and thus a fee market will bleed value =
from=20
Bitcoin and give it to alternative blockchains.&nbsp; If =
Bitcoin=E2=80=99s blocks are at=20
maximum capacity, people will exchange for something that allows them to =

transact with a lesser fee, then make the desired payment.&nbsp; This =
adds value=20
to the alternative blockchain and removes it from Bitcoin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica>Anyone thinking the fee market can =
be=20
restrained to Bitcoin alone is mistaken.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3Dbitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=20
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">Vali Zero via=20
bitcoin-dev</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 29, 2015 7:09 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dbitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=20
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.l=
inuxfoundation.org</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> [bitcoin-dev] R=C4=83spuns: Personal opinion on the =
fee market=20
from a worried local trader</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, helvetica neue, =
helvetica, arial, lucida grande, sans-serif; COLOR: #000; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff">
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_15868><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let =
me=20
rephrase it for you,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need =
Bitcoin=20
transactions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees =
that=20
establish the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin =
transactions. The=20
people are free to use they money for whatever they like, but you should =

understand that Bitcoin transactions are not free.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and =
gamblers=20
would be the first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam =
or=20
gamble, but they would have to pay for it.</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>When a category of users would get priced out because of =
the fee=20
market, they would be free to use any altcoin they want.<BR></DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20766 dir=3Dltr>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20765 dir=3Dltr>Please understand =
that not=20
everyone will leave. The more important players will remain, those that =
need it=20
the most. The other players are free to use whatever altcoin they =
wish.</DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20764 dir=3Dltr>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16267 =
class=3DqtdSeparateBR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16260 class=3Dyahoo_quoted=20
style=3D"DISPLAY: block">
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16259=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, helvetica neue, =
helvetica, arial, lucida grande, sans-serif">
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16258=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, helvetica neue, =
helvetica, arial, lucida grande, sans-serif">
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16266 dir=3Dltr><FONT=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16265 size=3D2 face=3DArial>=C3=8En =
Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015=20
16:47:57, Angel Leon &lt;gubatron@gmail.com&gt; a=20
scris:<BR></FONT></DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16257 class=3Dy_msg_container>
<DIV id=3Dyiv4231441391>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16256>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16255 dir=3Dltr>"<SPAN=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16261=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', =
helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">the=20
gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. </SPAN><SPAN=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16262=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', =
helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">The=20
people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."<BR clear=3Dnone><BR =
clear=3Dnone>so=20
people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don't need=20
Bitcoin.<BR clear=3Dnone>Who are you to say what people need to use =
money=20
for?</SPAN>=20
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16264><SPAN=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16263=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', =
helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">This=20
statement goes against the freedom of decentralization and financial =
freedom=20
Bitcoin should be able to provide.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20498><SPAN=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20667=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', =
helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)"><BR=20
clear=3Dnone>It's an open network and it will be used as most users see =
fit, and=20
that requires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's =
simple=20
physics, other time wait times will become unbearable for those not =
willing to=20
pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean bitcoins isn't =
useful, and=20
if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless.<BR clear=3Dnone><BR =
clear=3Dnone><BR=20
clear=3Dnone></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16275 =
class=3Dyiv4231441391gmail_extra>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20233>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20232 =
class=3Dyiv4231441391gmail_signature><A=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20231 =
href=3D"http://twitter.com/gubatron"=20
shape=3Drect rel=3Dnofollow =
target=3D_blank>http://twitter.com/gubatron</A><BR=20
clear=3Dnone></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16274 =
class=3Dyiv4231441391gmail_quote>On Wed,=20
Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev <SPAN=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20769 dir=3Dltr>&lt;<A=20
id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_20768=20
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" shape=3Drect =
rel=3Dnofollow=20
target=3D_blank=20
ymailto=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@list=
s.linuxfoundation.org</A>&gt;</SPAN>=20
wrote:<BR clear=3Dnone>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16273 =
class=3Dyiv4231441391gmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc =
1px solid">
  <DIV id=3Dyiv4231441391yqt01221 class=3Dyiv4231441391yqt3541122396>
  <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16272>
  <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16271=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, helvetica neue, =
helvetica, arial, lucida grande, sans-serif; COLOR: #000; =
BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff">
  <DIV id=3Dyui_3_16_0_1_1438174338151_16270 dir=3Dltr>Hello,<BR =
clear=3Dnone><BR=20
  clear=3Dnone>I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher =
fees=20
  would scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferring =
bank=20
  transfers or other payment methods. This does not make sense for me. =
If some=20
  users leave, then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down and so do =
the=20
  fees. The others remain.<BR clear=3Dnone><BR clear=3Dnone>Fee market =
means that an=20
  equilibrium is found between the demand for bitcoin transactions and =
the=20
  available supply (given by the block size). The fee is the price that =
finds=20
  this equilibrium.<BR clear=3Dnone><BR clear=3Dnone>If a fee market =
starts to=20
  exist, the first ones to leave are the spammers, probably followed by =
the=20
  gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts. The people =
that=20
  actually need Bitcoin would remain.<BR clear=3Dnone><BR =
clear=3Dnone>Please allow=20
  this fee market to form...<BR clear=3Dnone><BR clear=3Dnone>In the =
absence of a=20
  functioning fee market, I will refuse to run Bitcoin code that =
increases the=20
  block size and will do my best to tell everyone I know not to upgrade =
towards=20
  running such code. If Bitcoin succombs to the free stuff army, I will =
sell all=20
  the coins and leave. Nothing is for free.<BR clear=3Dnone><BR =
clear=3Dnone>I=20
  apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards =
expressing my=20
  opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader, computer engineer, with =
a=20
  reasonable understanding of free markets. And I'm running only one =
full=20
  node.<BR clear=3Dnone><BR clear=3Dnone>Kind regards,<BR =
clear=3Dnone>Valentin<BR=20
  clear=3Dnone><BR clear=3Dnone></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR=20
  clear=3Dnone>_______________________________________________<BR=20
  clear=3Dnone>bitcoin-dev mailing list<BR clear=3Dnone><A=20
  href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" shape=3Drect =
rel=3Dnofollow=20
  target=3D_blank=20
  =
ymailto=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@list=
s.linuxfoundation.org</A><BR=20
  clear=3Dnone><A=20
  =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"=20
  shape=3Drect rel=3Dnofollow=20
  =
target=3D_blank>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoi=
n-dev</A><BR=20
  clear=3Dnone><BR clear=3Dnone></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>=

<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>bitcoin-dev mailing=20
list<BR>bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org<BR>https://lists.linuxfound=
ation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML=
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