1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
|
Delivery-date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 16:12:01 -0800
Received: from mail-qt1-f184.google.com ([209.85.160.184])
by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
(Exim 4.94.2)
(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBAABBSX72SXAMGQENIPLDAY@googlegroups.com>)
id 1rcaDR-0006yC-9j
for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2024 16:12:01 -0800
Received: by mail-qt1-f184.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-42c7ce60175sf76166541cf.1
for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Tue, 20 Feb 2024 16:12:00 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1708474315; cv=pass;
d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
b=Y4dKJ8/OBhKe7puJ9n7a/JFz2oTjHUGyPGg9H/mo9QivZHcB4EIa2kdrFUI6Fwx4oF
J30CJaAwXFwAkCJhRSmhb2Fko/maIuGNeBcU1NsTZIhnghMmOG75zMwMsxin5JIFbHnX
5nTt0BTfcxQ9gahScnmnIMdU6+Lcs0NouAbSUEAAA6ZzXdXIfjKQxsWHuSLxtX/5+D2U
hjVEqLHunEuftkw9Egd0GCzJaDdSF3lJG6/L2DMd+6/7Ch/JBUG5lUIiafKkULxNWwN6
OmHzsTzSpHl4ZtJnx0gw8YogmxKeuOI4VruH4ueGb7qi0YvKnoLtPHBqfcPlAtaYFWwK
gDJA==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:content-transfer-encoding
:mime-version:feedback-id:references:in-reply-to:message-id:subject
:cc:from:to:date:dkim-signature;
bh=ml4AIYB0aJhYOTsCxZV10VOwlVvMblcvqriuV5PmDiY=;
fh=M1s/BZnodVKBQtczafiKKOWiTZ7pnX4npV7SI5kWAA4=;
b=o4peMuPySmMnapI+dThznAZUzNMwGvHRq5NBnYnyWJof5WwGUevGJPly9g5friHoWU
QhKTa9BaKFXgHxe4aqKmWbSsatwzxuPWaZVaN7YhhF+GfTrowyWRMBSJMTo2DdDgVqKz
08H28W1ryFerdModaQHNml3qt8KV7PM4OzG6Cos3KnOq48l0WiMwMphRZFtqYA1lvmAB
QAQCycf11qsG5ISFx/wu6rlVZItqydqYjML16fhpdWwTjIcWjffi2Qj/JEHU8JrCCzzR
wURpJFPxcTA5MoEPtJB0ju8q4AKQidXyXsAGwtDAaT1tvZEbrpXCYLOfFGE2nyW/qpfH
9YvQ==;
darn=gnusha.org
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=JnSVgcdL;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of jlspc@protonmail.com designates 185.70.40.141 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jlspc@protonmail.com;
dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1708474315; x=1709079115; darn=gnusha.org;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to
:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender
:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:feedback-id:references
:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date:from:to:cc:subject
:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=ml4AIYB0aJhYOTsCxZV10VOwlVvMblcvqriuV5PmDiY=;
b=W8NIFvG8a7/d+lFeF4WrbzmbAd2lf8NZdiLERiNLq09cByW7IyCu+PRaoJBLcfIF2+
56rP3G3Mu3m71cqhndEBKCiCoJR8tkhb1Hsvxxx+qFlClMgbEiApBLu70kqgTxPo1YqE
iypmbwNt5Xiscp2gT2iyDLRT7EABPKaQA9kxjDWO3Qdi4CATRX84FtHMD+c2m8p5qrBq
3f4PGIkhpPs1beTtM9h4x6WXgLw7bEva2WS5x8H4pc7FiPiKHUHNXYD6DgdiVw2Zf14O
bmK473iRqPBqEBSVrCi8szit+4M7QFS0H5L62HEZvOxlSzZMzEbMVYVk4BdA0yeH6lr5
JUNw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708474315; x=1709079115;
h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
:list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to
:x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender
:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:feedback-id:references
:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date:x-beenthere
:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=ml4AIYB0aJhYOTsCxZV10VOwlVvMblcvqriuV5PmDiY=;
b=GskolUGICvUptlN9lCLi0YRCjxVTKD3d8f/HMfMlokL8hC+gN7v9mCNtCg3xPmlQI1
xZ0K+C5onU1B9XpRdQTuXAtE32+x/XvDWuPsJ4sUGPEDeSMuKQmlKDsF8utxBGUMtRL+
xdrdAkLhArvds5d0yOJwNkMToQDkT0N8UyTrxNRTyHSdbva/lqlpgGoa/AJd3p+PhfaT
zSwGolI0LZGGuCGyjE7m1FNrO0aSimReWwOVLSeIo30LqR0Cz2ZDP0zco246DfmCAHO/
QK0rA6WTVi9NRxyh3i1QAug6U+Dy9t0yiCitWaqb/e/dHq7+izkFD/utrAAyAsQkjgFQ
hPwA==
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCU4srFCjWHb5svd3H3ftrj/+Qt5rnAalhfio3RygY94PVIiPaX8DPhj0o55DuzjfeUIY3nUwr5TM99NTS9UQEwM1w2eOAY=
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzeJoc29zDStVBXMIFS6Q7vLNrSO3U20Qs58EvOiPdergU4tXM9
YGJ5HVBD7+4ruOOBw9URnMBY48JfliqlAWjcKP+hWe7jB/MGMniL
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHbh0ut2iJyPE7+eGCxtPmrb2QqNTZHf3LIz2WrMrv3LxVZsft9OAGF1ildsu0P9jPkn2c9xQ==
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:6e82:0:b0:42d:d4b0:69c2 with SMTP id c2-20020ac86e82000000b0042dd4b069c2mr14239701qtv.6.1708474314862;
Tue, 20 Feb 2024 16:11:54 -0800 (PST)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Received: by 2002:ac8:5bc5:0:b0:42e:2ad0:3c7 with SMTP id b5-20020ac85bc5000000b0042e2ad003c7ls1157496qtb.1.-pod-prod-01-us;
Tue, 20 Feb 2024 16:11:54 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:4c6:b0:42d:f64c:1945 with SMTP id q6-20020a05622a04c600b0042df64c1945mr31409qtx.9.1708474313917;
Tue, 20 Feb 2024 16:11:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1a90:b0:787:7243:30c with SMTP id af79cd13be357-78783e085f6ms85a;
Tue, 20 Feb 2024 15:13:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5f4d:0:b0:511:951f:f83d with SMTP id 13-20020ac25f4d000000b00511951ff83dmr5553455lfz.25.1708470826263;
Tue, 20 Feb 2024 15:13:46 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1708470826; cv=none;
d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
b=QNai5HinJ9ne3gu2ou3gMj98+4qNk75meYN/t4JsUDnkchFKYOO1Jtfhx5eM+cAoAU
dUtJXpj6r0pDUuryU/k1vbPM8lT3kO1Ag7BoE7zusz+QlqBbgDxHw6Ik3+zJIlahdU+m
L5sNxRe8nw2dsrl9zXbEe4ayeenpY0twunRD6nf6JTp5cEOZpKtUEVaSbcAxnRxwHCn3
ooZvTXlKpnuSHxv5sE+nVV1uaq4nUluM945YQTsJ48klPStnluK/RlqEZ7k76zdGOcI3
+XPs8PMcFfO+VZ9MU+OEYWI+0IR5jW9jRs3dyiNQ7FjkBl7EzskGEAOuoEvynSsiKnw/
OQnw==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816;
h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:feedback-id:references
:in-reply-to:message-id:subject:cc:from:to:date:dkim-signature;
bh=0Y8QfUtd5nd9dlp8oJ9bJkxJCKE++l+kNKgzW0ExSyQ=;
fh=gXNd45OZp2Dl5EMOD2M5kLh5kHuPJ5ma2GN4K4dM9YM=;
b=oqalPrD27fdqQInMDSKmPg0GToLKKfmdP0KW6kwgiz7ERwNG0Zt0mQpsCuiXvNfzPr
pysaVg+lbbn14v8yVA/Gx1deMT13upBQ1yZIQEcWPw3HKlCHI+67BL1UQwK9I18SUdIt
LsoMZ9zv7NHES9ttHUi6qJbpmTS1N4eQW/cUdq2doQgzdxCBzzTi0j6Tn9RjzlRM5M25
0WB4GWeVkJPVuofZCDMVPa7YHD4TiGFaVo/pbMFbRvMzwgRmBHRbl//s/POD8zYReTgn
Dc5RLBsHOMkn/sVCO0pUc0DunBWi4CyDHCHg6lEHqgwz0PUJ/ifKGhq7xcDdjqjSejiv
mrng==;
dara=google.com
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com;
dkim=pass header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=JnSVgcdL;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of jlspc@protonmail.com designates 185.70.40.141 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jlspc@protonmail.com;
dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com
Received: from mail-40141.protonmail.ch (mail-40141.protonmail.ch. [185.70.40.141])
by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k21-20020ac24f15000000b00511a71805a8si436925lfr.8.2024.02.20.15.13.46
for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256);
Tue, 20 Feb 2024 15:13:46 -0800 (PST)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jlspc@protonmail.com designates 185.70.40.141 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.70.40.141;
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 23:13:35 +0000
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
From: "'jlspc' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "bitcoindev@googlegroups.com" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [bitcoindev] Re: [bitcoin-dev] CheckTemplateVerify Does Not Scale Due
to UTXO's Required For Fee Payment
Message-ID: <PnCfwvddzyZz4IZayq9GxSFhmc77F9-eL0EnnAl3QMNNB-S_FppHP8QXZ4ZR-9LoBW_6B3_GC3FqfpykjFUHGrR-hmNQ4_XJSGBH0CriI9g=@protonmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <Zbh/9fKrnid/psA/@petertodd.org>
References: <ZbFle6n0Zu3yUV8o@petertodd.org> <Gr0X5c-3nQcx-VLD3eQ-e0DoOFim5gUKeyOF5ViYPfjE030KB4QJ2tVyA4wfY64Um_zo0fTfjqkTN11-RcvDeiAVhE2_9VYcQ3kSGFD1dug=@protonmail.com> <Zbh/9fKrnid/psA/@petertodd.org>
Feedback-ID: 36436663:user:proton
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Original-Sender: jlspc@protonmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass
header.i=@protonmail.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=JnSVgcdL;
spf=pass (google.com: domain of jlspc@protonmail.com designates
185.70.40.141 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jlspc@protonmail.com;
dmarc=pass (p=QUARANTINE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=protonmail.com
X-Original-From: jlspc <jlspc@protonmail.com>
Reply-To: jlspc <jlspc@protonmail.com>
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
<https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)
Hi Peter,
Yes, Bitcoin's security should be based on all parties following economic i=
ncentives.
As you explain very convincingly in your V3 post [1], it's essential that m=
iners' economic incentives don't include receiving offchain payments for th=
eir mining decisions.
If we're successful in preventing incentives for offchain payments (e.g., b=
y avoiding the use of anchor outputs for paying fees [1]), then the onchain=
fees will represent the true cost of putting transactions onchain.
Even without other incentives for offchain payments, if feerate-dependent t=
imelocks (FDTs) were used to secure Layer 2 protocols, miners could collude=
with the operators of the Layer 2 protocols to mine blocks with artificial=
ly low median feerates and thus steal funds.
However, miners can already create reorgs that enable double-spends and ste=
al funds.
The defences against FDT attacks are similar to the defences against double=
-spend attacks.
In both cases, a conservative choice of security parameters (namely FDT par=
ameters or safe_confirmation_depth blocks) virtually eliminates the possibi=
lity of a successful attack involving less than 45% of the hashpower.
For example, an FDT with 16k window_size and 1k block_count has less than a=
10^-33 chance of being artificially manipulated by miners with 45% of the =
hashpower.
Thus, in both cases, the key issue is whether or not a majority of hashpowe=
r (or at least more than 45% of it) will collude in order to enable theft.
In the case of double-spend attacks, if a majority of the hashpower collude=
d in order to steal funds from deep in the blockchain, the attack would be =
highly-visible and would likely backfire due to damage to the value of bitc=
oin and/or other responses.
Similarly, if FDTs were used to secure funds in Lightning channels, channel=
factories, or Timeout-Trees, and if a majority of the hashpower colluded i=
n order to manipulate FDTs to steal those funds, the attack would again be =
highly-visible and likely to backfire.
It would be ideal if we could invent something that prevents forced expirat=
ion spam attacks without relying on detecting a spike in onchain fees.
Such an invention would be strictly better than FDTs.
However, I'm not aware of any such invention, and there's a case to be made=
that FDTs (or something else that's defined in terms of onchain fees) are =
our best chance for preventing forced expiration spam attacks [2].
This observation only strengthens your argument that we should avoid anythi=
ng (such as the use of anchor outputs for paying fees) that rewards miners =
for receiving offchain payments [1].
Offchain fees endanger not only miner decentralization, but also our abilit=
y to scale Bitcoin without incentivizing forced expiration spam attacks.
Given that Bitcoin will be far more valuable if it is decentralized and if =
it can scale safely, all parties (including miners) should want to keep fee=
s onchain.
Regards,
John
[1] https://petertodd.org/2023/v3-transactions-review#anchor-outputs-are-a-=
danger-to-mining-decentralization
[2] https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-December/0=
22198.html
Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
On Monday, January 29th, 2024 at 8:49 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> w=
rote:
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 05:49:26PM +0000, jlspc wrote:
>
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > If feerate-dependent timelocks (FDTs) (1) are supported, it would be po=
ssible to use CTV to define a transaction with a fixed fee and no anchor ou=
tputs, as long as it's racing against a transaction with an FDT.
>
>
> Fee-rate-dependant timelocks have obvious issues around manipulation of
> observed fee-rates by miners. It not unreasonable to say they assume mine=
rs are
> honest, which is a significant weakening of the economic incentive-based
> security model we usually assume in Bitcoin.
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/PnCfwvddzyZz4IZayq9GxSFhmc77F9-eL0EnnAl3QMNNB-S_FppHP8QXZ4ZR-9Lo=
BW_6B3_GC3FqfpykjFUHGrR-hmNQ4_XJSGBH0CriI9g%3D%40protonmail.com.
|
