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From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 15:47:48 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJowKgJRiyWPC-qOKWMHQQaW-h5TXXOTDw2V6TKQBe3PXQQMZQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@protonmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 Ali Sherief <ali@notatether.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Mempool spam] Should we as developers reject
 non-standard Taproot transactions from full nodes?
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im unclear as to the purpose paying an onchain transaction fee greater than
the amount receiving could possibly serve.

what benefit do you get aside from losing bitcoin?

are there any, non-theoretical, benefits to facilitating dust transactions?

we could, of course, have it be non-consensus (no route dust) to start with





On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Michael Folkson <
michaelfolkson@protonmail.com> wrote:

> > probably easier just to reject any transaction where the fee is higher
> than the sum of the outputs
>
> And prevent perfectly reasonable transfers of value and attempted
> Lightning channel closes during fee spikes? If I *want*=E2=80=8B to close=
 my
> Lightning channel during a protracted fee spike where I have to pay an
> onchain transaction fee greater than the amount I am receiving you want t=
o
> stop me doing that? You are impinging on a valid use case as well as
> requiring a consensus rule change.
>
> --
> Michael Folkson
> Email: michaelfolkson at protonmail.com
> GPG: A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F
>
> Learn about Bitcoin: https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 13:58, Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> probably easier just to reject any transaction where the fee is higher
> than the sum of the outputs
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023, 7:55 AM Ali Sherief via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I think everyone on this list knows what has happened to the Bitcoin
>> mempool during the past 96 hours. Due to side projects such as BRC-20
>> having such a high volume, real bitcoin transactions are being priced ou=
t
>> and that is what is causing the massive congestion that has arguable not
>> been seen since December 2017. I do not count the March 2021 congestion
>> because that was only with 1-5sat/vbyte.
>>
>> Such justifiably worthless ("worthless" is not even my word - that's how
>> its creator described them[1]) tokens threaten the smooth and normal use=
 of
>> the Bitcoin network as a peer-to-pear digital currency, as it was intend=
ed
>> to be used as.
>>
>> If the volume does not die down over the next few weeks, should we take
>> an action? The bitcoin network is a triumvirate of developers, miners, a=
nd
>> users. Considering that miners are largely the entities at fault for
>> allowing the system to be abused like this, the harmony of Bitcoin
>> transactions is being disrupted right now. Although this community has a
>> strong history of not putting its fingers into pies unless absolutely
>> necessary - an example being during the block size wars and Segwit - sho=
uld
>> similar action be taken now, in the form of i) BIPs and/or ii) commits i=
nto
>> the Bitcoin Core codebase, to curtail the loophole in BIP 342 (which
>> defines the validation rules for Taproot scripts) which has allowed thes=
e
>> unintended consequences?
>>
>> An alternative would be to enforce this "censorship" at the node level
>> and introduce a run-time option to instantly prune all non-standard Tapr=
oot
>> transactions. This will be easier to implement, but won't hit the road
>> until minimum next release.
>>
>> I know that some people will have their criticisms about this,
>> absolutists/libertarians/maximum-freedom advocates, which is fine, but w=
e
>> need to find a solution for this that fits everyone's common ground. We
>> indirectly allowed this to happen, which previously wasn't possible befo=
re.
>> So we also have a responsibility to do something to ensure that this kin=
d
>> of congestion can never happen again using Taproot.
>>
>> -Ali
>>
>> ---
>>
>> [1]:
>> https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-the=
-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/
>> <https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-th=
e-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/?outputType=3Damp>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>im unclear as to the purpose=C2=A0<span style=3D"font=
-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px">paying an onchain transaction =
fee greater than the amount receiving could possibly serve.</span></div><di=
v><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></spa=
n></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
">what benefit do you get aside from losing bitcoin?</span></div><div><span=
 style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div=
><div><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px">are t=
here any, non-theoretical, benefits to facilitating dust transactions?</spa=
n></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:14px">we could, of course, have it be non-consensus (no route dust) =
to start with</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:sy=
stem-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><=
/div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Mon, May 8, 2023 at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM Michael Folkson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:michaelfolkson@protonmail.com">michaelfolkson@protonmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"=
font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-=
family:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline">probably easier just to reject =
any transaction where the fee is higher than the sum of the outputs</span><=
/div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline">And prevent perfectly reasonable=
 transfers of value and attempted Lightning channel closes during fee spike=
s? If I <b>want</b>=E2=80=8B to close my Lightning channel during a protrac=
ted fee spike where I have to pay an onchain transaction fee greater than t=
he amount I am receiving you want to stop me doing that? You are impinging =
on a valid use case as well as requiring a consensus rule change.</span></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:system-ui,sans-serif;display:inline"><br></span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">
    <div>
        <div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospac=
e,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">--<br>Michael Folkson</span></s=
pan></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing=
:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo=
,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">Email: michaelfolkson =
at </span></span></span><a href=3D"http://protonmail.com/" style=3D"line-he=
ight:normal;text-decoration:underline;font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&=
quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace;font-size:14px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">protonmail.com</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);fo=
nt-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(2=
55,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Re=
gular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:14px"> </span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily:arial;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:no=
rmal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)=
;float:none;display:inline"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Conso=
las,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:14px">GPG: <span>A2CF5D71603C92010659818D2A75D601B23FEE0F</span></=
span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px"><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-s=
pacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word=
-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline"><=
span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quo=
t;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><span><br></sp=
an></span></span></span></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14p=
x"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap=
;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inli=
ne"><span style=3D"font-family:SFMono-Regular,Consolas,&quot;Liberation Mon=
o&quot;,Menlo,monospace,monospace"><span style=3D"font-size:14px"><span>Lea=
rn about Bitcoin: <span><a href=3D"https://www.youtube.com/@portofbitcoin" =
rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.youtube.com/@port=
ofbitcoin</a></span></span></span></span></span></div>
    </div>
   =20
            <div>
       =20
            </div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div>
        ------- Original Message -------<br>
        On Monday, May 8th, 2023 at 13:58, Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank=
">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
            <div dir=3D"auto">probably easier just to reject any transactio=
n where the fee is higher than the sum of the outputs<div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, May 8, 2023, 7:55 AM Ali Sherief =
via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=
" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">Hi guys,</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"=
><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">I thi=
nk everyone on this list knows what has happened to the Bitcoin mempool dur=
ing the past 96 hours. Due to side projects such as BRC-20 having such a hi=
gh volume, real bitcoin transactions are being priced out and that is what =
is causing the massive congestion that has arguable not been seen since Dec=
ember 2017. I do not count the March 2021 congestion because that was only =
with 1-5sat/vbyte.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px=
">Such justifiably worthless (&quot;worthless&quot; is not even my word - t=
hat&#39;s how its creator described them[1]) tokens threaten the smooth and=
 normal use of the Bitcoin network as a peer-to-pear digital currency, as i=
t was intended to be used as.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-ser=
if;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:14px">If the volume does not die down over the next few weeks, shoul=
d we take an action? The bitcoin network is a triumvirate of developers, mi=
ners, and users. Considering that miners are largely the entities at fault =
for allowing the system to be abused like this, the harmony of Bitcoin tran=
sactions is being disrupted right now. Although this community has a strong=
 history of not putting its fingers into pies unless absolutely necessary -=
 an example being during the block size wars and Segwit - should similar ac=
tion be taken now, in the form of i) BIPs and/or ii) commits into the Bitco=
in Core codebase, to curtail the loophole in BIP 342 (which defines the val=
idation rules for Taproot scripts) which has allowed these unintended conse=
quences?</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><b=
r></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">An alter=
native would be to enforce this &quot;censorship&quot; at the node level an=
d introduce a run-time option to instantly prune all non-standard Taproot t=
ransactions. This will be easier to implement, but won&#39;t hit the road u=
ntil minimum next release.</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;=
font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:14px">I know that some people will have their criticisms about this, ab=
solutists/libertarians/maximum-freedom advocates, which is fine, but we nee=
d to find a solution for this that fits everyone&#39;s common ground. We in=
directly allowed this to happen, which previously wasn&#39;t possible befor=
e. So we also have a responsibility to do something to ensure that this kin=
d of congestion can never happen again using Taproot.</div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px">-Ali</div><div style=3D"font-family:Ar=
ial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:14px">---</div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-seri=
f;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font=
-size:14px">[1]: <span><a href=3D"https://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazi=
ne/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-the-promise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/=
?outputType=3Damp" rel=3D"noreferrer nofollow noopener" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.coindesk.com/consensus-magazine/2023/05/05/pump-the-brcs-the-pro=
mise-and-peril-of-bitcoin-backed-tokens/</a></span></div><div style=3D"font=
-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div>
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