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From: ponymontana <ponymontana@disroot.org>
To: Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
In-Reply-To: <CABaSBaz9OTSVa1KNk0GOrH3T-kRF_7OPVu0AtpuaFGVB=zhdwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABaSBaz9OTSVa1KNk0GOrH3T-kRF_7OPVu0AtpuaFGVB=zhdwQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Future of the bitcoin-dev mailing list
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Hi,=20

This impellent deadline could be took with enthusiasm from people that are=
 anxious to experiment with new protocols and platforms that can replicate =
mailing lists and offer, in theory, better solutions=2E
I think this enthusiasm is totally positive and I encourage them to work o=
n that ideas=2E

But I also think that this mailing list fills a very particoular need of c=
ommunication in the bitcoin space=2E=20
The stream of ideas hosted here is strictly dependant on the form it assum=
es when formalized in the peculiar format of mails-threads=2E=20
Migrating these technical discussions to a forum or a pseudo-group-chat wo=
uldn't replace this mailing list, even if the moderators behind and most of=
 the participants would be the same=2E
It would eventually be a new and unstable solution, with no-guarantee to p=
reserve the same goals reached here=2E

Today exist a lot of places where people can exchange ideas about bitcoin;
if new platforms will emerge as better suited to hosts BIP drafts and tech=
nical discussions, people will move organically through them=2E
In my opinion, "finding a new platform" is only marginally correlated to o=
ur main topic here=2E


If our problem is helping decide the "future of bitcoin-dev mailing list",=
 the only two solutions to me appear to tautologically be:

1) Give continuity to bitcoin-dev mailing list with a ready drop-in replac=
ement=2E=20

2) Don't give continuity the bitcoin-dev mailing list=2E


In the case 1) a solution could be find a new host for the mailing list an=
d work around the problems exposed=2E

In the case 2) is possible to do nothing OR to propose a new solution as a=
 sort of "spiritual continuation" of bitcoin-dev mailing list, and eventual=
ly see if people will converge on it=2E


Understanding all the difficulty behind the management of the bitcoin-dev =
mailing list, I think it has worked very well for many years, and I hope it=
 will work for the years to come=2E
I also want to say thanks to all the people behind this mailing list for a=
ll your work and effort=2E


---PM

Il 7 novembre 2023 16:37:22 CET, Bryan Bishop via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev=
@lists=2Elinuxfoundation=2Eorg> ha scritto:
>Hello,
>
>We would like to request community feedback and proposals on the future o=
f
>the mailing list=2E
>
>Our current mailing list host, Linux Foundation, has indicated for years
>that they have wanted to stop hosting mailing lists, which would mean the
>bitcoin-dev mailing list would need to move somewhere else=2E We temporar=
ily
>avoided that, but recently LF has informed a moderator that they will cea=
se
>hosting any mailing lists later this year=2E
>
>In this email, we will go over some of the history, options, and invite
>discussion ahead of the cutoff=2E We have some ideas but want to solicit
>feedback and proposals=2E
>
>Background
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>The bitcoin-dev mailing list was originally hosted on Sourceforge=2Enet=
=2E The
>bitcoin development mailing list has been a source of proposals, analysis=
,
>and developer discussion for many years in the bitcoin community, with ma=
ny
>thousands of participants=2E Later, the mailing list was migrated to the
>Linux Foundation, and after that OSUOSL began to help=2E
>
>Linux Foundation first asked us to move the mailing list in 2017=2E They
>internally attempted to migrate all LF mailing lists from mailman2 to
>mailman3, but ultimately gave up=2E There were reports of scalability iss=
ues
>with mailman3 for large email communities=2E Ours definitely qualifies as=
=2E=2E
>large=2E
>
>2019 migration plan: LF was to turn off mailman and all lists would migra=
te
>to the paid service provider groups=2Eio=2E Back then we were given accou=
nts to
>try the groups=2Eio interface and administration features=2E Apparently w=
e were
>not the only dev community who resisted change=2E To our surprise LF gave=
 us
>several years of reprieve by instead handing the subdomain and server-sid=
e
>data to the non-profit OSUOSL lab who instead operated mailman2 for the
>past ~4 years=2E
>
>OSUOSL has for decades been well known for providing server infrastructur=
e
>for Linux and Open Source development so they were a good fit=2E This how=
ever
>became an added maintenance burden for the small non-profit with limited
>resources=2E Several members of the Bitcoin dev community contributed fun=
ding
>to the lab in support of their Open Source development infrastructure
>goals=2E But throwing money at the problem isn=E2=80=99t going to fix the=
 ongoing
>maintenance burden created by antiquated limitations of mailman2=2E
>
>Permalinks
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>Linux Foundation has either offered or agreed to maintain archive
>permalinks so that content of historic importance is not lost=2E Fortunat=
ely
>for us while lists=2Elinuxfoundation=2Eorg mailman will go down, they hav=
e
>agreed the read-only pipermail archives will remain online=2E So all old =
URLs
>will continue to remain valid=2E However, the moderators strongly advise =
that
>the community supplements with public-inbox instances to have canonical
>archive urls that are separate from any particular email software host=2E
>
>Public-Inbox
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>https://public-inbox=2Eorg/README=2Ehtml
>
>=E2=80=9CPublic Inbox=E2=80=9D decentralized archiving - no matter what m=
ailing list server
>solution is used, anyone can use git to maintain their own mailing list
>archive and make it available to read on the web=2E
>
>Public Inbox is a tool that you can run yourself=2E You can transform you=
r
>mbox file and it makes it browsable and viewable online=2E It commits eve=
ry
>post to a git repository=2E It's kind of like a decentralized mail archiv=
ing
>tool=2E Anyone can publish the mail archive to any web server they wish=
=2E
>
>We should try to have one or more canonical archives that are served usin=
g
>public-inbox=2E But it doesn't matter if these are lost because anyone el=
se
>can archive the mailing list in the same way and re-publish the archives=
=2E
>
>These git commits can also be stamped using opentimestamps, inserting the=
ir
>hashes into the bitcoin blockchain=2E
>
>LKML mailing list readers often use public-inbox's web interface, and the=
y
>use the reply-to headers to populate their mail client and reply to threa=
ds
>of interest=2E This allows their reply to be properly threaded even if th=
ey
>were not a previous subscriber to that mailing list to receive the header=
s=2E
>
>public-inbox makes it so that it doesn't really matter where the list is
>hosted, as pertaining to reading the mailing list=2E There is still a
>disruption if the mailing list goes away, but the archives live on and th=
en
>people can post elsewhere=2E The archive gets disconnected from the maili=
ng
>list host in terms of posting=2E We could have a few canonical URLs for t=
he
>hosts, separate from the mailing list server=2E
>
>mailman problems
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>Over the years we have identified a number of problems with mailman2
>especially as it pertains to content moderation=2E There are presently a
>handful of different moderators, but mailman2 only has a single password
>for logging into the email management interface=2E There are no moderator
>audit logs to see which user (there is no concept of different users) act=
ed
>on an email=2E There is no way to mark an email as being investigated by =
one
>or more of the moderators=2E Sometimes, while investigating the veracity =
of
>an email, another moderator would come in and approve a suspect email by
>accident=2E
>
>Anti spam has been an issue for the moderators=2E It's relentless=2E With=
out
>access to the underlying server, it has been difficult to fight spam=2E T=
here
>is some support for filters in mailman2 but it's not great=2E
>
>100% active moderation and approval of every email is unsustainable for
>volunteer moderators=2E A system that requires moderation is a heavy burd=
en
>on the moderators and it slows down overall communication and productivit=
y=2E
>There's lots of problems with this=2E Also, moderators can be blamed when
>they are merely slow while they are not actually censoring=2E
>
>Rejection emails can optionally be sent to
>bitcoin-dev-moderation@lists=2Eozlabs=2Eorg but this is an option that a
>moderator has to remember to type in each time=2E
>
>Not to mention numerous bugs and vulnerabilities that have accumulated ov=
er
>the years for relatively unmaintained software=2E (Not disclosed here)
>
>Requirements and considerations
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>Looking towards the future, there are a number of properties that seem to
>be important for the bitcoin-dev mailing list community=2E First, it is
>important that backups of the entire archive should be easy for the publi=
c
>to copy or verify so that the system can be brought up elsewhere if
>necessary=2E
>
>Second, there seems to be demand for both an email threading interface
>(using mailing list software) as well as web-accessible interfaces (such =
as
>forum software)=2E There seems to be very few options that cater to both
>email and web=2E Often, in forum software, email support is limited to em=
ail
>notifications and there is limited if any support for email user
>participation=2E
>
>Third, there should be better support for moderator tools and management =
of
>the mailing list=2E See above for complaints about problems with the mail=
man2
>system=2E
>
>Burdens of running your own mailing list and email server
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>If you have never operated your own MTA you have no idea how difficult it
>is to keep secure and functional in the face of numerous challenges to
>deliverability=2E Anti-spam filtering is essential to prevent forwarding
>spam=2E The moment you forward even a single spam message you run the ris=
k of
>the server IP address being added to blacklists=2E
>
>The problem of spam filtering is so bad that most IP addresses are presum=
ed
>guilty even if they have no prior spam history, such as if their network =
or
>subnetwork had spam issues in the past=2E
>
>Even if you put unlimited time into managing your own email server, other
>people may not accept your email=2E Or you make one mistake, and then you=
 get
>into permanent blacklists and it's hard to remove=2E The spam problem is =
so
>bad that most IPs are automatically on a guilty-until-proven-innocent
>blacklist=2E
>
>Often there is nothing you can do to get server IP addresses removed from
>spam blacklists or from "bad reputation" lists=2E
>
>Ironically, hashcash-style proof-of-work stamps to prevent spam are an
>appealing solution but not widely used in this community=2E Or anywhere=
=2E
>
>Infinite rejection or forwarding loops happen=2E They often need to be
>detected through vigilance and require manual sysadmin intervention to
>solve=2E
>
>Bitcoin's dev lists being hosted alongside other Open Source projects was
>previously protective=2E If that mailing list server became blacklisted t=
here
>were a lot of other people who would notice and complain=2E If we run a
>Bitcoin-specific mail server we are on our own=2E 100% of the administrat=
ive
>burden falls upon our own people=2E There is also nothing we can do if so=
me
>unknown admin decides they don't like us=2E
>
>Options
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>Web forums are an interesting option, but often don't have good email use=
r
>integration=2E At most you can usually hope for email notifications and a=
n
>ability to reply by email=2E It changes the model of the community from p=
ush
>(email) to pull (logging into a forum to read)=2E RSS feeds can help a li=
ttle
>bit=2E
>
>Many other projects have moved from mailing lists to forums (eg
>https://discuss=2Epython=2Eorg/ =E2=80=93 see https://lwn=2Enet/Articles/=
901744/ ; or
>https://ethresear=2Ech/), which seem easier to maintain and moderate, and=
 can
>have lots of advanced features beyond plaintext, maybe-threading and
>maybe-HTML-markup=2E
>
>Who would host the forum? Would there be agreement around which forum
>software to use or which forum host? What about bitcointalk=2Eorg or
>delvingbitcoin=2Eorg? There are many options available=2E Maybe what we
>actually want isn=E2=80=99t so much a discussion forum, as an 'arxiv of o=
ur own'
>where anons can post BIP drafts and the like?
>
>Given the problems with mailman2, and the decline of email communities in
>general, it seems that moving to mailman3 would not be a viable long-term
>option=2E This leaves us with Google Groups or groups=2Eio as two remaini=
ng
>options=2E
>
>groups=2Eio is an interesting option: they are a paid service that implem=
ents
>email communities along with online web forum support=2E However, their
>public changelog indicates it has been a few years since their last publi=
c
>change=2E They might be a smaller company and it is unclear how long they
>will be around or if this would be the right fit for hosting sometimes
>contentious bitcoin development discussions=2E=2E=2E
>
>Google Groups is another interesting option, and comes with different
>tradeoffs=2E It's the lowest effort to maintain option, and has both an e=
mail
>interface and web forum interface=2E Users can choose which mode they wan=
t to
>interact with=2E
>
>For the Google Groups web interface, you can use it with a non-gmail
>account, but you must create a Google Account which is free to do=2E it d=
oes
>not require any personal information to do so=2E This also allows you to =
add
>2FA=2E Non-gmail non-google users are able to subscribe and post email fr=
om
>their non-gmail non-google email accounts=2E Tor seems to work for the we=
b
>interface=2E
>
>Will Google shut it down, will they cut us off, will they shut down
>non-google users? The same problem exists with other third-party hosts=2E
>
>The moderation capabilities for Google Groups and groups=2Eio seem to be
>comparable=2E It seems more likely that Google Groups will be able to han=
dle
>email delivery issues far better than a small resource-constrained
>operation like groups=2Eio=2E ((During feedback for this draft, luke-jr
>indicates that Google Workspaces has been known to use blacklisted IPs fo=
r
>business email!))
>
>On the other hand, groups=2Eio is a paid service and you get what you pay
>for=2E=2E=2E hopefully?
>
>Finally, another option is to do literally nothing=2E It's less work over=
all=2E
>Users can switch to forums or other websites, or private one-on-one
>communication=2E It would remove a point of semi-centralization from the
>bitcoin ecosystem=2E It would hasten ossification, but on the other hand =
it
>would hasten ossification and this could be a negative too=2E Moderators
>would be less of a target=2E
>
>Unfortunately, by doing nothing, there would be no more widely used group
>email communication system between bitcoin developers=2E Developers becom=
e
>less coordinated, mayhem and chaos as people go to different communicatio=
n
>platforms, a divided community is more vulnerable, etc=2E BIP1 and BIP2 w=
ould
>need to be revised for other venues=2E
>
>The main categories of what to move to are: web forums, mailing lists, an=
d
>hybrids of those two options=2E Most everything is either self-hosted or =
you
>pay someone else to host it=2E It's kind of the same problem though=2E It
>largely depends on how good is the software and unfortunately running you=
r
>own MTA that forwards mail is not a good option=2E
>
>Going forward
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>We'd like to invite feedback and proposals from the community, and see wh=
at
>options are available=2E One potential option is a migration to Google
>Groups, but we're open to ideas at this point=2E We apologize for any
>inconvenience this disruption has caused=2E
>
>
>Bitcoin-dev mailing list moderation team
>
>Bryan Bishop
>Ruben Somsen
>Warren Togami
>various others=2E
>
>--=20
>- Bryan
>https://twitter=2Ecom/kanzure

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<html><head></head><body><div dir=3D"auto">Hi, <br><br>This impellent deadl=
ine could be took with enthusiasm from people that are anxious to experimen=
t with new protocols and platforms that can replicate mailing lists and off=
er, in theory, better solutions=2E<br>I think this enthusiasm is totally po=
sitive and I encourage them to work on that ideas=2E<br><br>But I also thin=
k that this mailing list fills a very particoular need of communication in =
the bitcoin space=2E <br>The stream of ideas hosted here is strictly depend=
ant on the form it assumes when formalized in the peculiar format of mails-=
threads=2E <br>Migrating these technical discussions to a forum or a pseudo=
-group-chat wouldn't replace this mailing list, even if the moderators behi=
nd and most of the participants would be the same=2E<br>It would eventually=
 be a new and unstable solution, with no-guarantee to preserve the same goa=
ls reached here=2E<br><br>Today exist a lot of places where people can exch=
ange ideas about bitcoin;<br>if new platforms will emerge as better suited =
to hosts BIP drafts and technical discussions, people will move organically=
 through them=2E<br>In my opinion, "finding a new platform" is only margina=
lly correlated to our main topic here=2E<br><br><br>If our problem is helpi=
ng decide the "future of bitcoin-dev mailing list", the only two solutions =
to me appear to tautologically be:<br><br>1) Give continuity to bitcoin-dev=
 mailing list with a ready drop-in replacement=2E <br><br>2) Don't give con=
tinuity the bitcoin-dev mailing list=2E<br><br><br>In the case 1) a solutio=
n could be find a new host for the mailing list and work around the problem=
s exposed=2E<br><br>In the case 2) is possible to do nothing OR to propose =
a new solution as a sort of "spiritual continuation" of bitcoin-dev mailing=
 list, and eventually see if people will converge on it=2E<br><br><br>Under=
standing all the difficulty behind the management of the bitcoin-dev mailin=
g list, I think it has worked very well for many years, and I hope it will =
work for the years to come=2E<br>I also want to say thanks to all the peopl=
e behind this mailing list for all your work and effort=2E<br><br><br>---PM=
</div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto">Il 7 novembre 20=
23 16:37:22 CET, Bryan Bishop via bitcoin-dev &lt;bitcoin-dev@lists=2Elinux=
foundation=2Eorg&gt; ha scritto:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204=
); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<br><br>We would like to request community&nbsp;fee=
dback and proposals on the future of the mailing list=2E<div><br><div>Our c=
urrent mailing list host, Linux Foundation, has indicated for years that th=
ey have wanted to stop hosting mailing lists, which would mean the bitcoin-=
dev mailing list would need to move somewhere else=2E We temporarily avoide=
d that, but recently LF has informed a moderator that they will cease hosti=
ng any mailing lists later this year=2E</div><div><br>In this email, we wil=
l go over some of the history, options, and invite discussion ahead of the =
cutoff=2E We have some ideas but want to solicit feedback and proposals=2E<=
br><br>Background<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>The bitcoin-dev =
mailing list was originally hosted on Sourceforge=2Enet=2E The bitcoin deve=
lopment mailing list has been a source of proposals, analysis, and develope=
r discussion for many years in the bitcoin community, with many thousands o=
f participants=2E Later, the mailing list was migrated to the Linux Foundat=
ion, and after that OSUOSL began to help=2E<br><br>Linux Foundation first a=
sked us to move the mailing list in 2017=2E They internally attempted to mi=
grate all LF mailing lists from mailman2 to mailman3, but ultimately gave u=
p=2E There were reports of scalability issues with mailman3 for large email=
 communities=2E Ours definitely qualifies as=2E=2E large=2E<br><br>2019 mig=
ration plan: LF was to turn off mailman and all lists would migrate to the =
paid service provider <a href=3D"http://groups=2Eio">groups=2Eio</a>=2E Bac=
k then we were given accounts to try the <a href=3D"http://groups=2Eio">gro=
ups=2Eio</a> interface and administration features=2E Apparently we were no=
t the only dev community who resisted change=2E To our surprise LF gave us =
several years of reprieve by instead handing the subdomain and server-side =
data to the non-profit OSUOSL lab who instead operated mailman2 for the pas=
t ~4 years=2E<br><br>OSUOSL has for decades been well known for providing s=
erver infrastructure for Linux and Open Source development so they were a g=
ood fit=2E This however became an added maintenance burden for the small no=
n-profit with limited resources=2E Several members of the Bitcoin dev commu=
nity contributed funding to the lab in support of their Open Source develop=
ment infrastructure goals=2E But throwing money at the problem isn=E2=80=99=
t going to fix the ongoing maintenance burden created by antiquated limitat=
ions of mailman2=2E<br><br>Permalinks<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>=
<br>Linux Foundation has either offered or agreed to maintain archive perma=
links so that content of historic importance is not lost=2E Fortunately for=
 us while <a href=3D"http://lists=2Elinuxfoundation=2Eorg">lists=2Elinuxfou=
ndation=2Eorg</a> mailman will go down, they have agreed the read-only pipe=
rmail archives will remain online=2E So all old URLs will continue to remai=
n valid=2E However, the moderators strongly advise that the community suppl=
ements with public-inbox instances to have canonical archive urls that are =
separate from any particular email software host=2E<br><br>Public-Inbox<br>=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br><a href=3D"https://public-inbox=
=2Eorg/README=2Ehtml">https://public-inbox=2Eorg/README=2Ehtml</a><br><br>=
=E2=80=9CPublic Inbox=E2=80=9D decentralized archiving - no matter what mai=
ling list server solution is used, anyone can use git to maintain their own=
 mailing list archive and make it available to read on the web=2E<br><br>Pu=
blic Inbox is a tool that you can run yourself=2E You can transform your mb=
ox file and it makes it browsable and viewable online=2E It commits every p=
ost to a git repository=2E It's kind of like a decentralized mail archiving=
 tool=2E Anyone can publish the mail archive to any web server they wish=2E=
<br><br>We should try to have one or more canonical archives that are serve=
d using public-inbox=2E But it doesn't matter if these are lost because any=
one else can archive the mailing list in the same way and re-publish the ar=
chives=2E<br><br>These git commits can also be stamped using opentimestamps=
, inserting their hashes into the bitcoin blockchain=2E<br><br>LKML mailing=
 list readers often use public-inbox's web interface, and they use the repl=
y-to headers to populate their mail client and reply to threads of interest=
=2E This allows their reply to be properly threaded even if they were not a=
 previous subscriber to that mailing list to receive the headers=2E<br><br>=
public-inbox makes it so that it doesn't really matter where the list is ho=
sted, as pertaining to reading the mailing list=2E There is still a disrupt=
ion if the mailing list goes away, but the archives live on and then people=
 can post elsewhere=2E The archive gets disconnected from the mailing list =
host in terms of posting=2E We could have a few canonical URLs for the host=
s, separate from the mailing list server=2E<br><br>mailman problems<br>=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>Over the years we have=
 identified a number of problems with mailman2 especially as it pertains to=
 content moderation=2E There are presently a handful of different moderator=
s, but mailman2 only has a single password for logging into the email manag=
ement interface=2E There are no moderator audit logs to see which user (the=
re is no concept of different users) acted on an email=2E There is no way t=
o mark an email as being investigated by one or more of the moderators=2E S=
ometimes, while investigating the veracity of an email, another moderator w=
ould come in and approve a suspect email by accident=2E<br><br>Anti spam ha=
s been an issue for the moderators=2E It's relentless=2E Without access to =
the underlying server, it has been difficult to fight spam=2E There is some=
 support for filters in mailman2 but it's not great=2E<br><br>100% active m=
oderation and approval of every email is unsustainable for volunteer modera=
tors=2E A system that requires moderation is a heavy burden on the moderato=
rs and it slows down overall communication and productivity=2E There's lots=
 of problems with this=2E Also, moderators can be blamed when they are mere=
ly slow while they are not actually censoring=2E<br><br>Rejection emails ca=
n optionally be sent to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev-moderation@lists=2Eoz=
labs=2Eorg">bitcoin-dev-moderation@lists=2Eozlabs=2Eorg</a> but this is an =
option that a moderator has to remember to type in each time=2E<br><br>Not =
to mention numerous bugs and vulnerabilities that have accumulated over the=
 years for relatively unmaintained software=2E (Not disclosed here)<br><br>=
Requirements and considerations<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>Looking towar=
ds the future, there are a number of properties that seem to be important f=
or the bitcoin-dev mailing list community=2E First, it is important that ba=
ckups of the entire archive should be easy for the public to copy or verify=
 so that the system can be brought up elsewhere if necessary=2E<br><br>Seco=
nd, there seems to be demand for both an email threading interface (using m=
ailing list software) as well as web-accessible interfaces (such as forum s=
oftware)=2E There seems to be very few options that cater to both email and=
 web=2E Often, in forum software, email support is limited to email notific=
ations and there is limited if any support for email user participation=2E<=
br><br>Third, there should be better support for moderator tools and manage=
ment of the mailing list=2E See above for complaints about problems with th=
e mailman2 system=2E<br><br>Burdens of running your own mailing list and em=
ail server<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>If you have never operated your=
 own MTA you have no idea how difficult it is to keep secure and functional=
 in the face of numerous challenges to deliverability=2E Anti-spam filterin=
g is essential to prevent forwarding spam=2E The moment you forward even a =
single spam message you run the risk of the server IP address being added t=
o blacklists=2E<br><br>The problem of spam filtering is so bad that most IP=
 addresses are presumed guilty even if they have no prior spam history, suc=
h as if their network or subnetwork had spam issues in the past=2E<br><br>E=
ven if you put unlimited time into managing your own email server, other pe=
ople may not accept your email=2E Or you make one mistake, and then you get=
 into permanent blacklists and it's hard to remove=2E The spam problem is s=
o bad that most IPs are automatically on a guilty-until-proven-innocent bla=
cklist=2E<br><br>Often there is nothing you can do to get server IP address=
es removed from spam blacklists or from "bad reputation" lists=2E<br><br>Ir=
onically, hashcash-style proof-of-work stamps to prevent spam are an appeal=
ing solution but not widely used in this community=2E Or anywhere=2E<br><br=
>Infinite rejection or forwarding loops happen=2E They often need to be det=
ected through vigilance and require manual sysadmin intervention to solve=
=2E<br><br>Bitcoin's dev lists being hosted alongside other Open Source pro=
jects was previously protective=2E If that mailing list server became black=
listed there were a lot of other people who would notice and complain=2E If=
 we run a Bitcoin-specific mail server we are on our own=2E 100% of the adm=
inistrative burden falls upon our own people=2E There is also nothing we ca=
n do if some unknown admin decides they don't like us=2E<br><br>Options<br>=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>Web forums are an interesting option, but ofte=
n don't have good email user integration=2E At most you can usually hope fo=
r email notifications and an ability to reply by email=2E It changes the mo=
del of the community from push (email) to pull (logging into a forum to rea=
d)=2E RSS feeds can help a little bit=2E<br><br>Many other projects have mo=
ved from mailing lists to forums (eg <a href=3D"https://discuss=2Epython=2E=
org/">https://discuss=2Epython=2Eorg/</a> =E2=80=93 see <a href=3D"https://=
lwn=2Enet/Articles/901744/">https://lwn=2Enet/Articles/901744/</a> ; or <a =
href=3D"https://ethresear=2Ech/">https://ethresear=2Ech/</a>), which seem e=
asier to maintain and moderate, and can have lots of advanced features beyo=
nd plaintext, maybe-threading and maybe-HTML-markup=2E<br><br>Who would hos=
t the forum? Would there be agreement around which forum software to use or=
 which forum host? What about <a href=3D"http://bitcointalk=2Eorg">bitcoint=
alk=2Eorg</a> or <a href=3D"http://delvingbitcoin=2Eorg">delvingbitcoin=2Eo=
rg</a>? There are many options available=2E Maybe what we actually want isn=
=E2=80=99t so much a discussion forum, as an 'arxiv of our own' where anons=
 can post BIP drafts and the like?<br><br>Given the problems with mailman2,=
 and the decline of email communities in general, it seems that moving to m=
ailman3 would not be a viable long-term option=2E This leaves us with Googl=
e Groups or <a href=3D"http://groups=2Eio">groups=2Eio</a> as two remaining=
 options=2E<br><br><a href=3D"http://groups=2Eio">groups=2Eio</a> is an int=
eresting option: they are a paid service that implements email communities =
along with online web forum support=2E However, their public changelog indi=
cates it has been a few years since their last public change=2E They might =
be a smaller company and it is unclear how long they will be around or if t=
his would be the right fit for hosting sometimes contentious bitcoin develo=
pment discussions=2E=2E=2E<br><br>Google Groups is another interesting opti=
on, and comes with different tradeoffs=2E It's the lowest effort to maintai=
n option, and has both an email interface and web forum interface=2E Users =
can choose which mode they want to interact with=2E<br><br>For the Google G=
roups web interface, you can use it with a non-gmail account, but you must =
create a Google Account which is free to do=2E it does not require any pers=
onal information to do so=2E This also allows you to add 2FA=2E Non-gmail n=
on-google users are able to subscribe and post email from their non-gmail n=
on-google email accounts=2E Tor seems to work for the web interface=2E <br>=
<br>Will Google shut it down, will they cut us off, will they shut down non=
-google users? The same problem exists with other third-party hosts=2E<br><=
br>The moderation capabilities for Google Groups and <a href=3D"http://grou=
ps=2Eio">groups=2Eio</a> seem to be comparable=2E It seems more likely that=
 Google Groups will be able to handle email delivery issues far better than=
 a small resource-constrained operation like <a href=3D"http://groups=2Eio"=
>groups=2Eio</a>=2E ((During feedback for this draft, luke-jr indicates tha=
t Google Workspaces has been known to use blacklisted IPs for business emai=
l!))<br><br>On the other hand, <a href=3D"http://groups=2Eio">groups=2Eio</=
a> is a paid service and you get what you pay for=2E=2E=2E hopefully?<br><b=
r>Finally, another option is to do literally nothing=2E It's less work over=
all=2E Users can switch to forums or other websites, or private one-on-one =
communication=2E It would remove a point of semi-centralization from the bi=
tcoin ecosystem=2E It would hasten ossification, but on the other hand it w=
ould hasten ossification and this could be a negative too=2E Moderators wou=
ld be less of a target=2E<br><br>Unfortunately, by doing nothing, there wou=
ld be no more widely used group email communication system between bitcoin =
developers=2E Developers become less coordinated, mayhem and chaos as peopl=
e go to different communication platforms, a divided community is more vuln=
erable, etc=2E BIP1 and BIP2 would need to be revised for other venues=2E<b=
r><br>The main categories of what to move to are: web forums, mailing lists=
, and hybrids of those two options=2E Most everything is either self-hosted=
 or you pay someone else to host it=2E It's kind of the same problem though=
=2E It largely depends on how good is the software and unfortunately runnin=
g your own MTA that forwards mail is not a good option=2E<br><br>Going forw=
ard<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>We'd like to invite feedbac=
k and proposals from the community, and see what options are available=2E O=
ne potential option is a migration to Google Groups, but we're open to idea=
s at this point=2E We apologize for any inconvenience this disruption has c=
aused=2E<br><br><br>Bitcoin-dev mailing list moderation team<br><br>Bryan B=
ishop<br>Ruben Somsen<br>Warren Togami<br>various others=2E<br><div><br></d=
iv></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></body></html>
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