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To: Chris Stewart <chris@suredbits.com>
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Dear Chris,
> I think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into using =
drivechains.
I have heard this nonsense repeated countless times in order to justify =
adopting Drivechain.
This is not how security works.
A child can "opt-in" to using a loaded gun, but is it a good idea to =
make it easy for them to do that?
No.
This is effectively the same thing Drivechains is doing.
It is a request to modify the Bitcoin protocol to make it easy for =
Bitcoin users to give their Bitcoins to miners.
Does that sound like a good idea to anyone?
If so, please leave, you are compromising Bitcoin's security.
Security is about making it difficult to shoot yourself in the face.
If I design a car that has a button that randomly causes the brakes to =
give out if pressed, is that a good idea? Can I justify pushing for such =
a "feature" just because it's "opt-in"?
No. That is fallacy.
It is not how secure systems are designed.
It is how *insecure* systems are designed.
> Care to share? I'm unaware if there is.
Sure, happy to, as soon as I have it written up in detail.
Kind regards,
Greg Slepak
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.
> On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Chris Stewart <chris@suredbits.com =
<mailto:chris@suredbits.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Greg,
>=20
> >Here, you admit that the security of the sidechains allows miners to =
steal bitcoins, something they cannot do currently.
>=20
> If I put my coins in an anyone can spend output, a miner will take =
them. They can do this today. I suggest you try it if you don't believe =
me :-). You have to be more specific with contract types instead of =
generically talking about 'all contracts ever'.
>=20
> > Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's security =
guarantees. This you have not denied.
>=20
> I think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into using =
drivechains. Other outputs such as P2PKH/Multisig etc are unaffected by =
a drivechain output. As Pieter Wuille stated earlier in this thread (and =
Paul has stated all along), drivechain outputs have a different security =
model than other contracts. Namely they are controlled by miners. I =
think we can all agree this is unfortunate, but it is the current =
reality we live in. I look forward to the day we can solve the =
'ownership' problem so we can have trustless interoperable blockchains, =
but that day is not today.
>=20
> As a reminder, most users will not have to go through the drivechain =
withdrawal process. Most withdrawals will be done via atomic swaps.
>=20
> >There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's security in such a dramatic =
fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.
>=20
> Care to share? I'm unaware if there is.
>=20
> =
>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.=
html =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.=
html>
>=20
> Everyone should re-read this email though, this is something that =
could happen. Paul's design makes it so that if this occurs it is *VERY* =
obvious. I guess we can argue if there is any difference between an =
obvious robbery vs a hidden robbery, but I think if we have to pick one =
or the other the choice is clear to me. Other designs (that I'm aware =
of) for sidechains had attack vectors that weren't so obvious.
>=20
> -Chris
>=20
>=20
>=20
--Apple-Mail=_2DDDFBFD-2A3C-485A-BA09-D6BD09394C92
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=us-ascii
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html=
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Dear Chris,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">I think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt =
into using drivechains.</div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I have heard this nonsense repeated countless times in order =
to justify adopting Drivechain.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is not how security =
works.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A child =
can "opt-in" to using a loaded gun, but is it a good idea to make it =
easy for them to do that?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">No.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This is effectively the same thing Drivechains is =
doing.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is a =
request to modify the Bitcoin protocol to make it easy for Bitcoin users =
to give their Bitcoins to miners.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Does that sound like a good idea to =
anyone?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If so, =
please leave, you are compromising Bitcoin's security.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Security is about making =
it difficult to shoot yourself in the face.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If I design a car that has a button =
that randomly causes the brakes to give out if pressed, is that a good =
idea? Can I justify pushing for such a "feature" just because it's =
"opt-in"?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">No. =
That is fallacy.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It is not how secure systems are designed.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is how *insecure* =
systems are designed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Care to share? I'm unaware if =
there is. </div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sure, happy to, as soon as I have it =
written up in detail.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Kind regards,</div><div class=3D"">Greg Slepak</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; =
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">--</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that you are not =
comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""> with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Chris Stewart <<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris@suredbits.com" class=3D"">chris@suredbits.com</a>>=
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Greg,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">>Here, you admit that the security of the sidechains =
allows miners to steal bitcoins, something they cannot do currently.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If I put my coins in an =
anyone can spend output, a miner will take them. They can do this today. =
I suggest you try it if you don't believe me :-). You have to be more =
specific with contract types instead of generically talking about 'all =
contracts ever'. <br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">> =
Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's security =
guarantees. This you have not denied.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I=
think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into using =
drivechains. Other outputs such as P2PKH/Multisig etc are unaffected by =
a drivechain output. As Pieter Wuille stated earlier in this thread (and =
Paul has stated all along), drivechain outputs have a different security =
model than other contracts. Namely they are controlled by miners. I =
think we can all agree this is unfortunate, but it is the current =
reality we live in. I look forward to the day we can solve the =
'ownership' problem so we can have trustless interoperable blockchains, =
but that day is not today.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As a reminder, most =
users will not have to go through the drivechain withdrawal process. =
Most withdrawals will be done via atomic swaps. <br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">>There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's security in such a =
dramatic=20
fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Care to share? I'm =
unaware if there is. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">><a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/=
014600.html" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-Ju=
ne/014600.html</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Everyone should re-read this email though, this is something =
that could happen. Paul's design makes it so that if this occurs it is =
*VERY* obvious. I guess we can argue if there is any difference between =
an obvious robbery vs a hidden robbery, but I think if we have to pick =
one or the other the choice is clear to me. Other designs (that I'm =
aware of) for sidechains had attack vectors that weren't so obvious.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">-Chris<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_2DDDFBFD-2A3C-485A-BA09-D6BD09394C92--
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|
