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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size
	increase(extensionblocks)
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Wow.  That email was delayed by the list for quite some time.  It was =
sent on 6/1.
From: Raystonn .=20
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 12:02 PM
To: Mike Hearn ; Adam Back=20
Cc: Bitcoin Dev=20
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size =
increase(extensionblocks)

I also need to argue for increasing the default block limit to the full =
1MB in the next release.  We=E2=80=99re already hitting that limit in =
bursts of transactions, which puts pressure on the average displayed in =
the below graphs.

From: raystonn@hotmail.com=20
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 11:39 AM
To: Mike Hearn ; Adam Back=20
Cc: Bitcoin Dev=20
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size increase =
(extensionblocks)

> And we're not going to get to VISA scale any time soon

No, not at these block size limits.  The closer we get to the maximum =
block size, the slower we grow the average block size toward it.  Number =
of transactions per day is of course highly correlated with average =
block size.  Based on these graphs we can expect that hitting 1 million =
transactions per day will be impossible without raising the maximum =
block size.


https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?showDataPoints=3Dfalse&show=
_header=3Dtrue&daysAverageString=3D7&timespan=3Dall&scale=3D1&address=3D



https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?showDataPoints=3Dfalse&time=
span=3Dall&show_header=3Dtrue&daysAverageString=3D7&scale=3D1&address=3D =




From: Mike Hearn=20
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2015 11:01 AM
To: Adam Back=20
Cc: Bitcoin Dev=20
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size increase =
(extensionblocks)

  (at reduced security if it has software that doesnt understand it)=20

Well, yes. Isn't that rather key to the issue?  Whereas by simply =
increasing the block size, SPV wallets don't care (same security and =
protocol as before) and fully validating wallets can be updated with a =
very small code change.

  A 1MB client wont even understand the difference between a 1MB and 8MB
  out payment.=20

Let's say an old client makes a payment that only gets confirmed in an =
extension block. The wallet will think the payment is unconfirmed and =
show that to the user forever, no?

Can you walk through the UX for each case?

  If I am not misremembering, I think you've sided typically
  with the huge block, big data center only end of the spectrum. =20

It would be Satoshi, that argued that.

I think there must be a communication issue here somewhere. I'm not sure =
how this meme has taken hold amongst you guys, as I am the guy who wrote =
the scalability page back in 2011:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability


It says:

  The core Bitcoin network can scale to much higher transaction rates =
than are seen today, assuming that nodes in the network are primarily =
running on high end servers rather than desktops.=20


By "much higher rates" I meant VISA scale and by "high end server" I =
meant high end by today's standards not tomorrows. There's a big =
difference between a datacenter and a single server! By definition a =
single server is not a datacenter, although it would be conventional to =
place it in one. But even with the most wildly optimistic growth =
imaginable, I couldn't foresee a time when you needed more than a single =
machine to keep up with the transaction stream.=20


And we're not going to get to VISA scale any time soon: I don't think =
I've ever argued we will. If it does happen it would presumably be =
decades away. Again, short of some currently unimagined killer app.


So I don't believe I've ever argued this, and honestly I kinda feel =
people are putting words in my mouth.


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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Wow.&nbsp; That email was delayed by the list for quite some =
time.&nbsp; It=20
was sent on 6/1.</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=3Draystonn@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:raystonn@hotmail.com">Raystonn .</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2015 12:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dmike@plan99.net =
href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net">Mike=20
Hearn</A> ; <A title=3Dadam@cypherspace.org=20
href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org">Adam Back</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dbitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin =
Dev</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size=20
increase(extensionblocks)</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>I also need to argue for increasing the default block limit to the =
full 1MB=20
in the next release.&nbsp; We=E2=80=99re already hitting that limit in =
bursts of=20
transactions, which puts pressure on the average displayed in the below=20
graphs.</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=3Draystonn@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:raystonn@hotmail.com">raystonn@hotmail.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2015 11:39 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dmike@plan99.net =
href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net">Mike=20
Hearn</A> ; <A title=3Dadam@cypherspace.org=20
href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org">Adam Back</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dbitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin =
Dev</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size =
increase=20
(extensionblocks)</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV><FONT style=3D"COLOR: #252525" face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20
style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><FONT style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&gt; And =
we're not going=20
to get to VISA scale any time soon</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"COLOR: #252525" size=3D3 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20
style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"COLOR: #252525" size=3D3 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20
style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px">No, not at these block size limits.&nbsp; =
The closer=20
we get to the maximum block size, the slower we grow the average block =
size=20
toward it.&nbsp; Number of transactions per day is of course highly =
correlated=20
with average block size.&nbsp; Based on these graphs we can expect that =
hitting=20
1 million transactions per day will be impossible without raising the =
maximum=20
block size.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
title=3Dhttps://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?showDataPoints=3Dfa=
lse&amp;show_header=3Dtrue&amp;daysAverageString=3D7&amp;timespan=3Dall&a=
mp;scale=3D1&amp;address=3D=20
href=3D"https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-size?showDataPoints=3Dfa=
lse&amp;show_header=3Dtrue&amp;daysAverageString=3D7&amp;timespan=3Dall&a=
mp;scale=3D1&amp;address=3D">https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-block-siz=
e?showDataPoints=3Dfalse&amp;show_header=3Dtrue&amp;daysAverageString=3D7=
&amp;timespan=3Dall&amp;scale=3D1&amp;address=3D</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><A=20
title=3Dhttps://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?showDataPoints=3Dfa=
lse&amp;timespan=3Dall&amp;show_header=3Dtrue&amp;daysAverageString=3D7&a=
mp;scale=3D1&amp;address=3D=20
href=3D"https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions?showDataPoints=3Dfa=
lse&amp;timespan=3Dall&amp;show_header=3Dtrue&amp;daysAverageString=3D7&a=
mp;scale=3D1&amp;address=3D">https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transaction=
s?showDataPoints=3Dfalse&amp;timespan=3Dall&amp;show_header=3Dtrue&amp;da=
ysAverageString=3D7&amp;scale=3D1&amp;address=3D</A>=20

<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=3Dmike@plan99.net =

href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net">Mike Hearn</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 01, 2015 11:01 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dadam@cypherspace.org=20
href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org">Adam Back</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dbitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net=20
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin =
Dev</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bitcoin-development] soft-fork block size =
increase=20
(extensionblocks)</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">(at=20
  reduced security if it has software that doesnt understand it) =
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Well, yes. Isn't that rather key to the issue?&nbsp; Whereas by =
simply=20
increasing the block size, SPV wallets don't care (same security and =
protocol as=20
before) and fully validating wallets can be updated with a very small =
code=20
change.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">A=20
  1MB client wont even understand the difference between a 1MB and =
8MB<BR>out=20
  payment. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Let's say an old client makes a payment that only gets confirmed in =
an=20
extension block. The wallet will think the payment is unconfirmed and =
show that=20
to the user forever, no?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Can you walk through the UX for each case?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">If=20
  I am not misremembering, I think you've sided typically<BR>with the =
huge=20
  block, big data center only end of the spectrum.&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It would be Satoshi, that argued that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I think there must be a communication issue here somewhere. I'm not =
sure=20
how this meme has taken hold amongst you guys, as I am the guy who wrote =
the=20
scalability page back in 2011:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability">https://en.bitcoin.it/wik=
i/Scalability</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It says:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; =
BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
  <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>
  <DIV><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; COLOR: =
rgb(37,37,37); LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><I>The=20
  core Bitcoin network can scale to much higher transaction rates than =
are seen=20
  today, assuming that nodes in the network are primarily running on =
high end=20
  servers rather than desktops. =
</I></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_extra>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(37,37,37); =
LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: =
17px">By=20
"much higher rates" I meant VISA scale and by "high end server" I meant =
high end=20
by today's standards not tomorrows. There's a big difference between a=20
datacenter and a single server! </SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(37,37,37); LINE-HEIGHT: =
17px">By=20
definition a single server is not a datacenter, although it would be=20
conventional to place it in one. But </SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(37,37,37); LINE-HEIGHT: =
17px">even=20
with the most wildly optimistic growth imaginable, I couldn't foresee a =
time=20
when you needed more than a single machine to keep up with the =
transaction=20
stream. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20
style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: =
17px">And=20
we're not going to get to VISA scale any time soon: I don't think I've =
ever=20
argued we will. If it does happen it would presumably be decades away. =
Again,=20
short of some currently unimagined killer app.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN=20
style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: 17px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#252525 face=3Dsans-serif><SPAN style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: =
17px">So I=20
don't believe I've ever argued this, and honestly I kinda feel people =
are=20
putting words in my mouth.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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