1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
|
Return-Path: <john@synonym.to>
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8CAC002D
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 17 Oct 2022 06:23:38 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 692F6812C6
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 17 Oct 2022 06:23:38 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 692F6812C6
Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=synonym-to.20210112.gappssmtp.com
header.i=@synonym-to.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256
header.s=20210112 header.b=P9RLTRyn
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.897
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id ZLgOiCYReQaY
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 17 Oct 2022 06:23:37 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org E97C6812BE
Received: from mail-qt1-x82c.google.com (mail-qt1-x82c.google.com
[IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82c])
by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E97C6812BE
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Mon, 17 Oct 2022 06:23:36 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-qt1-x82c.google.com with SMTP id s3so7134285qtn.12
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:23:36 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=synonym-to.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112;
h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version
:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=22LaAPDJ8F6K1e0Fn359B4EOQ0ds8UMn7yqH5vG4uv0=;
b=P9RLTRynaFmSsB6/3f1fFcTbjFC7R1UeIIIgGt/6sm74D3x7VHiQ8K+2IsF04PPi5Y
y2O+uIG7Y9DIPCbLm1/cTwxT15+6s25Rcr1jM//I2tVctvZS9bOqXEZUcAIGRf0Bt5sb
ngIIDP9TaEf8g/K8y++WpMviT9yHCM8O9EL2wVvfpCEJzEwarfU150z4KFyI7vkzO1I/
qXkNsIn9yP7Bqilm4b9VmOpbfhukjeFxmy+k3+WAvU0r+E0dpS5zTYPoxHCqL3ZudkmV
hJZ+fbNLz/FWyHipMwjDJ7IiNSHgRn1SQxZKTqv0GqfTq7GLoLG1F0DX7DFLB4ePwYWf
LqXQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version
:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=22LaAPDJ8F6K1e0Fn359B4EOQ0ds8UMn7yqH5vG4uv0=;
b=d94Ukp3DKH4CA5azhMe6RGJWJDTvIl21FmdDIU23Zl+3lVZ2LjBaVgn/bAlbCSWUFm
/zG0GCr4weoDn2+mv7wN8omWtrQ7XvzJlHPXDssNBMfE2JYX0PUVIevC5PCLtqzt+xge
OYRBpFhKi1vGAa0OmQEBe72gDHZcc1FTcmV1H9obGBJvvM2S4aLpd7Lq7i/0+YCtu7qi
XCctH5qXAMet4astPDBOx+VqqXvXH6eKuKjmQfwfyGxsnK1dRTiXLquw9I0qPH5qjv8+
Jx7XbP9/8PaROtzBbtyNXyxPgPGILxhJ6yV9Pus6jYrqBJPH/afIhYfkWc0dFXHQNC6r
FuCQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1h2VWmjAZAWiElW71FWw5eMQ432Lpv2R4Q+PAGJbc/oFTxBwFE
TTdVyk9XGInlSWA2kZQOCYq4Q+aei7SGwQ9sp6D2icQ/cUbdqZRHeis=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6t5Il64UfMuwEiq1koadXFKNlR3pj2gIL2kGEYH7R6xRNnGdrs+oUFiWhW6tEYZLtj1sAWl0M9SYm5Rw9k5xo=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1316:b0:39c:e8e6:7038 with SMTP id
v22-20020a05622a131600b0039ce8e67038mr3613190qtk.262.1665987815219; Sun, 16
Oct 2022 23:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <mailman.34559.1665948998.956.bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.34559.1665948998.956.bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
From: John Carvalho <john@synonym.to>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 08:23:20 +0200
Message-ID: <CAHTn92zSBHQAf=i--+dwhWHEX3U9pQPN5uc5ryGkbEb3R3H8Gw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ed3ab905eb350385"
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 11:39:27 +0000
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Does Bitcoin require or have an honest majority
or a rational one? (re rbf) (Jeremy Rubin)
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 06:23:38 -0000
--000000000000ed3ab905eb350385
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Simply, 0conf acceptance can be monitored and enforced by the merchant and
exposure to doublespends can be both mitigated and limited in size per
block. It is less expensive to be double-spent occasionally than to have a
delayed checkout experience. Responsible 0conf acceptance is both rational
and trusting.
RBF assurances are optionally enforced by miners, and can be assisted by
node mempool policies. It is not reliable to expect replaceable payments to
be enforced in a system designed to enforce integrity of payments. RBF is
both irrational and trusting.
RBF is a whim of a feature where engineers made the mistake of thinking a
hack that basically incentivizes rollbacks and uncertainty might be useful
because we can pretend Bitcoin has an undo button, and we can pretend to
game the fee market by low-balling rates until txns get in.
Now RBF just kinda haunts us as the establishment keeps baking it deeper
and deeper into Bitcoin, despite almost no one using it, and despite it
having negative consequences on more popular use cases.
Miners serve full nodes. What is more likely, a node set that prefers
blocks with replaced txns, or a node set that rejects blocks with replaced
txns?
--
John Carvalho
CEO, Synonym.to <http://synonym.to/>
--000000000000ed3ab905eb350385
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Simply, 0conf acceptance can be monitored and enforce=
d by the merchant and exposure to doublespends can be both mitigated and li=
mited in size per block. It is less expensive to be double-spent occasional=
ly than to have a delayed checkout experience. Responsible 0conf acceptance=
is both rational and trusting.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>RBF assuranc=
es are optionally enforced by miners, and can be assisted by node=C2=A0memp=
ool policies. It is not reliable to expect replaceable payments to be enfor=
ced in a system designed to enforce integrity of payments. RBF is both irra=
tional and trusting.</div><div><br></div><div>RBF is a whim of a feature wh=
ere engineers made the mistake of thinking a hack that basically incentiviz=
es rollbacks and uncertainty might be useful because we can pretend Bitcoin=
has an undo button, and we can pretend to game the fee market by low-balli=
ng rates until txns get in.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Now RBF just kin=
da haunts us as the=C2=A0establishment keeps baking it deeper and deeper in=
to Bitcoin, despite almost no one using it, and despite it having negative =
consequences on more popular use cases.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Mine=
rs serve full nodes. What is more likely, a node set that prefers blocks wi=
th replaced txns, or a node set that rejects blocks with replaced txns?=C2=
=A0</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"all"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(34,34,34)">--</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir=3D"ltr">John Carvalho</div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr">CEO,=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://synonym.to/" style=3D"color:rg=
b(17,85,204)" target=3D"_blank">Synonym.to</a></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div>
--000000000000ed3ab905eb350385--
|
