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From: Jared Lee Richardson <jaredr26@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:07:15 -0700
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	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hard fork proposal from last week's meeting
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> While Segwit's change from 1 mb size limit to 4 mb weight limit seems to
be controversial among some users [..] I don't think it's very interesting
to discuss further size increases.

I think the reason for this is largely because SegWit as a blocksize
increase isn't very satisfying.  It resolves to a one-time increase with no
future plans, thus engendering the same objections as people who demand we
just "raise the number to N."  People can argue about what N should be, but
when N is just a flat number, we know we'll have to deal with the issue
again.

In that light I think it is even more essential to continue to discuss the
blocksize debate and problem.

> I find more interesting to talk to the users and see how they think
Segwit harms them,

From an inordinant amount of time spent reading Reddit, I believe this
largely comes down to the rumor that has a deathgrip on the BU community -
That Core are all just extensions of Blockstream, and blockstream wants to
restrict growth on-chain to force growth of their 2nd layer
services(lightning and/or sidechains).

I believe the tone of the discussion needs to be changed, and have been
trying to work to change that tone for weeks now.  There's one faction that
believes that Bitcoin will rarely, if ever, benefit from a blocksize
increase, and fees rising is a desired/unavoidable result.  There's a
different faction that believes Bitcoin limits are arbitrary and that all
people worldwide should be able to put any size transactions, even
microtransactions, on-chain.  Both factions are extreme in their viewpoints
and resort to conspiracy theories to interpret the actions of
Core(blockstream did it) or BU(Jihan controls everything and anyone who
says overwise is a shill paid by Roger Ver!)

It is all very unhealthy for Bitcoin.  Both sides need to accept that
microtransactions from all humans cannot go on-chain, and that never
increasing the blocksize doesn't mean millions of home users will run
nodes.  The node argument breaks down economically and the microtransaction
argument is an impossible mountain for a blockchain to climb.


On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 2:37 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> While Segwit's change from 1 mb size limit to 4 mb weight limit seems to
> be controversial among some users (I find that very often it is because
> they have been confused about what segwit does or even outright lied abou=
t
> it) I don't think it's very interesting to discuss further size increases=
.
> I find more interesting to talk to the users and see how they think Segwi=
t
> harms them, maybe we missed something in segwit that needs to be removed
> for segwit to become uncontroversial, or maybe it is just disinformation.
>
> On the other hand, we may want to have our first uncontroversial hardfork
> asap, independently of block size. For example, we could do something as
> simple as fixing the timewarp attack as bip99 proposes. I cannot think of=
 a
> hf that is easier to implement or has less potential for controversy than
> that.
>
> On 29 Mar 2017 8:32 am, "Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.
> linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Wang Chun via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> The basic idea is, as many of us agree, hard fork is risky and should
>> be well prepared. We need a long time to deploy it.
>>
>
> Much as it may be appealing to repeal the block size limit now with a
> grace period until a replacement is needed in a repeal and replace
> strategy, it's dubious to assume that an idea can be agreed upon later wh=
en
> it can't be agreed upon now. Trying to put a time limit on it runs into t=
he
> possibility that you'll find that whatever reasons there were for not
> having general agreement on a new setup before still apply, and running
> into the embarrassing situation of winding up sticking with the status qu=
o
> after much sturm and drang.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">&gt;=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">While Segwit&#3=
9;s change from 1 mb size limit to 4 mb weight limit seems to be controvers=
ial among some users [..]=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I do=
n&#39;t think it&#39;s very interesting to discuss further size increases.<=
/span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br><br>I think the reason for this =
is largely because SegWit as a blocksize increase isn&#39;t very satisfying=
.=C2=A0 It resolves to a one-time increase with no future plans, thus engen=
dering the same objections as people who demand we just &quot;raise the num=
ber to N.&quot; =C2=A0People can argue about what N should be, but when N i=
s just a flat number, we know we&#39;ll have to deal with the issue again.<=
br><br>In that light I think it is even more essential to continue to discu=
ss the blocksize debate and problem.<br><br>&gt;=C2=A0</span><span style=3D=
"font-size:12.8px">I find more interesting to talk to the users and see how=
 they think Segwit harms them,<br><br>From an inordinant amount of time spe=
nt reading Reddit, I believe this largely comes down to the rumor that has =
a deathgrip on the BU community - That Core are all just extensions of Bloc=
kstream, and blockstream wants to restrict growth on-chain to force growth =
of their 2nd layer services(lightning and/or sidechains).</span><div><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2.8px">I believe the tone of the discussion needs to be changed, and have b=
een trying to work to change that tone for weeks now.=C2=A0 There&#39;s one=
 faction that believes that Bitcoin will rarely, if ever, benefit from a bl=
ocksize increase, and fees rising is a desired/unavoidable result.=C2=A0 Th=
ere&#39;s a different faction that believes Bitcoin limits are arbitrary an=
d that all people worldwide should be able to put any size transactions, ev=
en microtransactions, on-chain.=C2=A0 Both factions are extreme in their vi=
ewpoints and resort to conspiracy theories to interpret the actions of Core=
(blockstream did it) or BU(Jihan controls everything and anyone who says ov=
erwise is a shill paid by Roger Ver!)</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-=
size:12.8px"><br>It is all very unhealthy for Bitcoin.=C2=A0 Both sides nee=
d to accept that microtransactions from all humans cannot go on-chain, and =
that never increasing the blocksize doesn&#39;t mean millions of home users=
 will run nodes.=C2=A0 The node argument breaks down economically and the m=
icrotransaction argument is an impossible mountain for a blockchain to clim=
b.<br><br></span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 2:37 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n via bitcoin-d=
ev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundatio=
n.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>While Se=
gwit&#39;s change from 1 mb size limit to 4 mb weight limit seems to be con=
troversial among some users (I find that very often it is because they have=
 been confused about what segwit does or even outright lied about it) I don=
&#39;t think it&#39;s very interesting to discuss further size increases.</=
div><div dir=3D"auto">I find more interesting to talk to the users and see =
how they think Segwit harms them, maybe we missed something in segwit that =
needs to be removed for segwit to become uncontroversial, or maybe it is ju=
st disinformation.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"=
>On the other hand, we may want to have our first uncontroversial hardfork =
asap, independently of block size. For example, we could do something as si=
mple as fixing the timewarp attack as bip99 proposes. I cannot think of a h=
f that is easier to implement or has less potential for controversy than th=
at.<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div><div class=3D"h5">On 29 Mar 2017 8:32 am, &quot;Bram Cohen via bitc=
oin-dev&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br type=3D"attribution"></div></div><blockquote class=3D"m_797406792067308=
3629quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"m_7974067920673083629quoted-text">=
On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Wang Chun via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
The basic idea is, as many of us agree, hard fork is risky and should<br>
be well prepared. We need a long time to deploy it.<br></blockquote><div><b=
r></div></div><div>Much as it may be appealing to repeal the block size lim=
it now with a grace period until a replacement is needed in a repeal and re=
place strategy, it&#39;s dubious to assume that an idea can be agreed upon =
later when it can&#39;t be agreed upon now. Trying to put a time limit on i=
t runs into the possibility that you&#39;ll find that whatever reasons ther=
e were for not having general agreement on a new setup before still apply, =
and running into the embarrassing situation of winding up sticking with the=
 status quo after much sturm and drang.</div><div><br></div></div></div></d=
iv>
<br></div></div><span class=3D"">______________________________<wbr>_______=
__________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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