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From: alp alp <alp.bitcoin@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 12:16:07 -0600
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A Modified Version of Luke-jr's Block Size BIP
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Doing nothing is the rules we all agreed to.  If those rules are to be
changed,nearly everyone will need to consent.  The same rule applies to the
cap, we all agreed to 21m, and if someone wants to change that, nearly
everyone would need to agree.

On Feb 8, 2017 10:28 AM, "Andrew Johnson" <andrew.johnson83@gmail.com>
wrote:

It is when you're talking about making a choice and 6.3x more people prefer
something else. Doing nothing is a choice as well.

Put another way, if 10% supported increasing the 21M coin cap and 63% were
against, would you seriously consider doing it?

On Feb 8, 2017 9:57 AM, "alp alp" <alp.bitcoin@gmail.com> wrote:

> 10% is not a tiny minority.
>
> On Feb 8, 2017 9:51 AM, "Andrew Johnson" <andrew.johnson83@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You're never going to reach 100% agreement, and stifling the network
>> literally forever to please a tiny minority is daft.
>>
>> On Feb 8, 2017 8:52 AM, "alp alp via bitcoin-dev" <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> 10% say literally never.  That seems like a significant
>> disenfranchisement and lack of consensus.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:25 PM, t. khan via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, February 06, 2017 6:19:43 PM you wrote:
>>>> > >My BIP draft didn't make progress because the community opposes any
>>>> block
>>>> > >size increase hardfork ever.
>>>> >
>>>> > Luke, how do you know the community opposes that? Specifically, how
>>>> did you
>>>> > come to this conclusion?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.strawpoll.me/12228388/r
>>>
>>>
>>> That poll shows 63% of votes want a larger than 1 MB block by this
>>> summer. How do you go from that to "the community opposes any block
>>> increase ever"? It shows the exact opposite of that.
>>>
>>>
>>>> > >Your version doesn't address the current block size
>>>> > >issues (ie, the blocks being too large).
>>>> >
>>>> > Why do you think blocks are "too large"? Please cite some evidence.
>>>> I've
>>>> > asked this before and you ignored it, but an answer would be helpful
>>>> to the
>>>> > discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Full node count is far below the safe minimum of 85% of economic
>>>> activity.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is this causing a problem now? If so, what?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Typically reasons given for people not using full nodes themselves come
>>>> down
>>>> to the high resource requirements caused by the block size.
>>>
>>>
>>> The reason people stop running nodes is because there's no incentive to
>>> counteract the resource costs. Attempting to solve this by making blocks
>>> *smaller* is like curing a disease by killing the patient. (Incentivizing
>>> full node operation would fix that problem.)
>>>
>>> - t.k.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>>

--001a113db2fad3faba054808db31
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Doing nothing is the rules we all agreed to.=C2=A0 I=
f those rules are to be changed,nearly everyone will need to consent.=C2=A0=
 The same rule applies to the cap, we all agreed to 21m, and if someone wan=
ts to change that, nearly everyone would need to agree.<br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 8, 2017 10:28 AM, &quot;An=
drew Johnson&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.johnson83@gmail.com">andrew=
.johnson83@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">It is when you&#39;re talking about making a ch=
oice and 6.3x more people prefer something else. Doing nothing is a choice =
as well.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Put another way, if 1=
0% supported increasing the 21M coin cap and 63% were against, would you se=
riously consider doing it?</div></div><div class=3D"elided-text"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 8, 2017 9:57 AM, &qu=
ot;alp alp&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alp.bitcoin@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">alp.bitcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">10% is not a tiny minority.</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 8, 2017 9:51=
 AM, &quot;Andrew Johnson&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andrew.johnson83@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">andrew.johnson83@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=
=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>You&=
#39;re never going to reach 100% agreement, and stifling the network litera=
lly forever to please a tiny minority is daft.<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 8, 2017 8:52 AM, &quot;alp alp via =
bitcoin-dev&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"m_-4533964880556653042m_-=
8682514029143378247m_-1566305387424443597quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">10% say liter=
ally never.=C2=A0 That seems like a significant disenfranchisement and lack=
 of consensus.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div class=3D"m_-4533964880556653042m_-8682514029143378247m_-15663053874=
24443597elided-text">On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:25 PM, t. khan via bitcoin-de=
v <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation=
.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"m_-4533=
964880556653042m_-8682514029143378247m_-1566305387424443597elided-text"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div>On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Luke Dashjr <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:luke@dashjr.org" target=3D"_blank">luke@dashjr.=
org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span><span class=3D"m_-453396488055665=
3042m_-8682514029143378247m_-1566305387424443597m_-8603678674590328520m_590=
3971323563278916gmail-">On Monday, February 06, 2017 6:19:43 PM you wrote:<=
br>
&gt; &gt;My BIP draft didn&#39;t make progress because the community oppose=
s any block<br>
&gt; &gt;size increase hardfork ever.<br>
&gt;<br>
</span></span><span><span class=3D"m_-4533964880556653042m_-868251402914337=
8247m_-1566305387424443597m_-8603678674590328520m_5903971323563278916gmail-=
">&gt; Luke, how do you know the community opposes that? Specifically, how =
did you<br>
&gt; come to this conclusion?<br>
<br>
</span></span><a href=3D"http://www.strawpoll.me/12228388/r" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.strawpoll.me/122283<wbr>88/r</a></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div>That poll shows 63% of votes want a larger than 1 MB blo=
ck by this summer. How do you go from that to &quot;the community opposes a=
ny block increase ever&quot;? It shows the exact opposite of that.<div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><span><span class=3D"m_-4533964880556653042m_-868=
2514029143378247m_-1566305387424443597m_-8603678674590328520m_5903971323563=
278916gmail-">
&gt; &gt;Your version doesn&#39;t address the current block size<br>
&gt; &gt;issues (ie, the blocks being too large).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Why do you think blocks are &quot;too large&quot;? Please cite some ev=
idence. I&#39;ve<br>
&gt; asked this before and you ignored it, but an answer would be helpful t=
o the<br>
&gt; discussion.<br>
<br>
</span></span>Full node count is far below the safe minimum of 85% of econo=
mic activity.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Is this causing a problem=
 now? If so, what?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:s=
olid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Typically reasons given for people not using full nodes themselves come dow=
n<br>
to the high resource requirements caused by the block size.</blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>The reason people stop running nodes is because there&#39;=
s no incentive to counteract the resource costs. Attempting to solve this b=
y making blocks *smaller* is like curing a disease by killing the patient. =
(Incentivizing full node operation would fix that problem.)<br></div><div><=
br></div><div>- t.k.</div></div><br></div></div></div>
<br></div><div class=3D"m_-4533964880556653042m_-8682514029143378247m_-1566=
305387424443597quoted-text">______________________________<wbr>____________=
_____<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>ion.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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