summaryrefslogtreecommitdiff
path: root/9a/9a7ca1693937ad051009274e592938678a9ea1
blob: 327e5a75e9e8c399fec0f1ef66ba690b580a3c9d (plain)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
438
439
440
441
442
443
444
445
446
447
448
449
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
471
472
473
474
475
476
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
504
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
512
513
514
515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
524
525
526
527
528
529
530
531
532
533
534
535
536
537
538
539
540
541
542
543
544
545
546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
564
565
566
567
568
569
570
571
572
573
574
575
576
577
578
579
580
581
582
583
584
585
586
587
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
597
598
599
600
601
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613
614
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625
626
627
628
629
630
631
632
633
634
635
636
637
638
639
640
641
642
643
644
645
646
647
648
649
650
651
652
653
654
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
664
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191]
	helo=mx.sourceforge.net)
	by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <g.rowe.froot@gmail.com>) id 1TgBWU-0006qA-E3
	for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Wed, 05 Dec 2012 09:44:10 +0000
Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com
	designates 209.85.216.47 as permitted sender)
	client-ip=209.85.216.47; envelope-from=g.rowe.froot@gmail.com;
	helo=mail-qa0-f47.google.com; 
Received: from mail-qa0-f47.google.com ([209.85.216.47])
	by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76) id 1TgBWN-0001Kt-Rm
	for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net;
	Wed, 05 Dec 2012 09:44:10 +0000
Received: by mail-qa0-f47.google.com with SMTP id a19so2076333qad.13
	for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>;
	Wed, 05 Dec 2012 01:43:58 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.224.77.68 with SMTP id f4mr27237898qak.10.1354700638380; Wed,
	05 Dec 2012 01:43:58 -0800 (PST)
Sender: g.rowe.froot@gmail.com
Received: by 10.49.83.130 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Dec 2012 01:43:58 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <CA+s+GJByVMpHLdOnnAiaBYNUACRi7CFr6=NX+Ocg7R6zktQUSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANEZrP3=GdyTe+2=cp-ROOJ8_t=yCqO-7GQ4hA-3aksg46p+ww@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAS2fgQYV7aR86QOwvqMLpFZ+MAwSOSZvV6XuZdXvqjeYziRng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANEZrP3ZhNYrgQZT4qOohejs3yhgt0c_kT5zwAUVtPP1Q9f1Zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAS2fgSJhX4974BdWGdyJA13kHg7mTgHadC6UdhdUPu0bDDXFg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALf2ePw82wt08_G2RtUYEBxorjY1ryZ4r+W7atSzDLYMU+rGGQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAS2fgQewysOG7eOHQxmLup4oLJK=jY=q-_4qTL6yKQ855g3ew@mail.gmail.com>
	<50BEACAB.3070304@gmail.com>
	<CAAS2fgRfUMYwOE51+eY5QE8nDNV==G1OBRzM1AuHjYmYwTFiow@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAGjxm7vFkunziwECv1Twq4M9eC0nbgcqdCK6t6i7R84R_kPUTA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+s+GJByVMpHLdOnnAiaBYNUACRi7CFr6=NX+Ocg7R6zktQUSA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2012 09:43:58 +0000
X-Google-Sender-Auth: Hv_ckaH7rtmbE-Ow1PZzkijEroo
Message-ID: <CAKm8k+2nWgKbEL+iWp7-rmMXYJNsxWz6E9SFy8AMtWiRoead7g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Gary Rowe <g.rowe@froot.co.uk>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3074b54053e31a04d017d26a
X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/)
X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net.
	See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details.
	-1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for
	sender-domain
	0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider
	(g.rowe.froot[at]gmail.com)
	-0.0 SPF_PASS               SPF: sender matches SPF record
	1.2 MISSING_HEADERS        Missing To: header
	1.0 HTML_MESSAGE           BODY: HTML included in message
	0.1 DKIM_SIGNED            Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
	not necessarily valid
	-0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
X-Headers-End: 1TgBWN-0001Kt-Rm
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Roadmap to getting users onto SPV clients
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>,
	<mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 09:44:10 -0000

--20cf3074b54053e31a04d017d26a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would like to chime on on the user experience of the SPV client (in
particular MultiBit).

Without exception, everyone that I have introduced Bitcoin (which is a lot
of people) have expected an "instant-on" experience. It has to clobber
PayPal and credit cards or people won't give it a second look, let alone a
second chance. SPV clients deliver on that expectation.

Once the user has the great initial "wow!" moment then their interest in
Bitcoin is reinforced and they tend to explore further, particularly into
the economic theory behind it. Many decide to install the full node out of
a sense of community contribution to the security of the network.

Having a hybrid mode of SPV first then full node second should be something
that a user has control over - it is their computing resources we are using
after all and Bitcoin should not be perceived as a drain.


On 5 December 2012 07:50, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Most of those issues don't have to do with the SPV versus non-SPV problem=
.
>
> First person doesn't understand what Bitcoin is supposed to do (he's
> confusing mining and running a node). An information problem that could b=
e
> solved by explaining what is going on.
>
> Another one seems to have a problem with DEP. That's probably an issue
> with his OS configuration.
>
> The third one is confused about the fees. Again, an information problem.
>
> Only the fourth one is concerned with synchronization. The other ones
> could happen with any client, as they're either based on misconceptions
> about bitcoin as a whole or computer problems.
>
> This doesn't in any way make switching to another, reduced security model
> client preferable. Let's first try to improve the Bitcoin experience with
> full security model, and if that somehow turns out to be impossible it's
> always possible to recommend some other client based on the 'user type'.
>
> I don't agree that this point is now. Anyway, security and stability of
> the network is of utmost importance to do anything in the future, better =
to
> grow organically than explode.
>
> Many initiatives are underway to improve the Satoshi client (for
> example to have Bitcoin-Qt behave as SPV client during initial block
> download, and as full node after that), but as usual in open source
> development, many of us are doing this basically for fun in our free time
> it does not always go as fast as users would like.
>
> I wish there was a straightforward solution for that, yeah pooling
> together our development on one or two clients instead of a zillion
> different ones could help, but everyone has more fun working on their own
> client that's just how things go :)
>
> Wladimir
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 6:38 AM, Jim Nguyen <jimmy.winn@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Gavin's grandma needs to be able to use bitcoin.  Here is a real world
>> sampling of the types of people wanting to use bitcoin but are having so=
me
>> difficulty which I have collected from Facebook.  Should we listen to th=
e
>> end user? :-P
>>
>> *"what is the intention of Bitcoin? Is it supposed to be - eventually -
>> for dummies like myself or is it just for those individuals who are code
>> and algorithm writers? I downloaded a wallet but how do I know if I need
>> more software or a massive computer system to solve "the problem" for th=
e
>> next block? With all the talk of mathematical problem solving on a world
>> wide network of computers I can't see a small laptop figuring out anythi=
ng
>> thus not gaining any bitcoins. Why should I be interested in this if it
>> appears it's just for computer scientists?"*
>>
>> *"hi, instaled bitcoin qt, but after it dowladed all the stuff, now i
>> get DEP protecction from windows, and it tells me bitcoinQT need to run
>> with DEP on, dont let me make an exception for it, nor work it i turn DE=
P
>> only for sys, so hwat i should do?"*
>>
>> *"hi, i'm new to bitcoin, i got a bunch of free bitcoins from a bunch of
>> the free sites. how come when i tried to send my bitcoins to myself, it
>> says the fee exceeds the balance? I thought there was no fees?"*
>>
>> *"Is there a way to speed up the process of synchronisation with the
>> network? It has been taken ages on my MAC.*
>> *Any help would be nice"*
>> *
>> *
>> *and more...*
>>
>> Sorry if this doesn't belong to the bitcoin-development email list.  I
>> just see this as end-user/customer data gathering to refine the
>> requirements, since this is software engineering...isn't it?
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>wrot=
e:
>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>>> > Our divergence is on two points (personal opinions):
>>> >
>>> > (1) I don't think there is any real risk to the centralization of the
>>> > network by promoting a SPV (purely-consuming) node to brand-new users=
.
>>> > In my opinion (but I'm not as familiar with the networking as you), a=
s
>>> > long as all full nodes are full-validation, the bottleneck will be
>>> > computation and bandwidth, long before a constant 10k nodes would be
>>> > insufficient to support propagating data through the network.
>>>
>>> Not so=E2=80=94 a moderately fast multicore desktop machine can keep up=
 with
>>> the maximum possible validation rate of the Bitcoin network and the
>>> bandwidth has a long term maximum rate of about 14kbit/sec=E2=80=94 tho=
ugh
>>> you'll want at least ten times that for convergence stability and the
>>> ability feed multiple peers.
>>>
>>> Here are the worst blocks testnet3 (which has some intentionally
>>> constructed maximum sized blocks),E31230 :
>>> (with the new parallel validation code)
>>> - Verify 2166 txins: 250.29ms (0.116ms/txin)
>>> - Verify 3386 txins: 1454.25ms (0.429ms/txin)
>>> - Verify 5801 txins: 575.46ms (0.099ms/txin)
>>> - Verify 6314 txins: 625.05ms (0.099ms/txin)
>>> Even the slowest one _validates_ at 400x realtime. (these measurements
>>> are probably a bit noisy=E2=80=94 but the point is that its fast).
>>> (the connecting is fast too, but thats obvious with such a small
>>> database)
>>>
>>> Although I haven't tested leveldb+ultraprune with a really enormous
>>> txout set or generally with sustained maximum load=E2=80=94 so there ma=
y be
>>> other gaffs in the software that get exposed with sustained load, but
>>> they'd all be correctable. Sounds like some interesting stuff to test
>>> with on testnet fork that has the POW test disabled.
>>>
>>> While syncing up a behind node can take a while=E2=80=94 keep in mind t=
hat
>>> you're expecting to sync up weeks of network work in hours. Even
>>> 'slow' is quite fast.
>>>
>>> > In fact,
>>> > I was under the impression that "connectedness" was the real metric o=
f
>>> > concern (and resilience of that connectedness to large percentage of
>>> > users disappearing suddenly).  If that's true, above a certain number
>>> of
>>> > nodes, the connectedness isn't really going to get any better (I know
>>> > it's not really that simple, but I feel like it is up to 10x the
>>> current
>>> > network size).
>>>
>>> Thats not generally concern for me. There are a number of DOS attack
>>> risks... But attacker linear DOS attacks aren't generally avoidable
>>> and they don't persist.
>>>
>>> Of the class of connectedness concerns I have is that a sybil attacker
>>> could spin up enormous numbers of nodes and then use them to partition
>>> large miners.  So, e.g. find BitTaco's node(s) and the nodes for
>>> miners covering 25% hashpower and get them into a separate partition
>>> from the rest of the network. Then they give double spends to that
>>> partition and use them to purchase an unlimited supply of digitally
>>> delivered tacos=E2=80=94 allowing their captured miners to build an ill=
 fated
>>> fork=E2=80=94 and drop the partition once the goods are delivered.
>>>
>>> But there is no amount of full nodes that removes this concern,
>>> especially if you allow for attackers which have compromised ISPs.
>>> It can be adequately addressed by a healthy darknet of private
>>> authenticated peerings between miners and other likely targets. I've
>>> also thrown out some ideas on using merged mined node IDs to make some
>>> kinds of sybil attacks harder ... but it'll be interesting to see how
>>> the deployment of ASICs influences the concentration of hashpower=E2=80=
=94 it
>>> seems like there has already been a substantial move away from the
>>> largest pools. Less hashpower consolidation makes attacks like this
>>> less worrisome.
>>>
>>> > (2) I think the current experience *is* really poor.
>>>
>>> Yes, I said so specifically.  But the fact that people are flapping
>>> their lips here instead of testing the bitcoin-qt git master which is
>>> an 1-2 order of magnitude improvement suggests that perhaps I'm wrong
>>> about that.  Certainly the dearth of people testing and making bug
>>> reports suggests people don't actually care that much.
>>>
>>> > You seem to
>>> > suggest that the question for these new users is whether they will us=
e
>>> > full-node-or-lite-node, but I believe it will be a decision between
>>> > lite-node-or-nothing-at-all (losing interest altogether).
>>>
>>> No. The "question" that I'm concerned with is do we promote lite nodes
>>> as equally good option=E2=80=94 even for high end systems=E2=80=94 remo=
ve the
>>> incentive for people to create, improve, and adopt more useful full
>>> node software and forever degrade the security of the system.
>>>
>>> > Waiting a day
>>> > for the full node to synchronize, and then run into issues like
>>> > blkindex.dat corruption when their system crashes for some unrelated
>>> > reason and they have to resync for another day... they'll be gone in =
a
>>> > heartbeat.
>>>
>>> The current software patches plus parallelism can sync on a fast
>>> system with luck network access (or a local copy of the data) in under
>>> an hour.
>>>
>>> This is no replacement for start as SPV, but nor are handicapped
>>> client programs a replacement for making fully capable ones acceptably
>>> performing.
>>>
>>> > Users need to experience, as quickly and easily as possible, that the=
y
>>> > can move money across the world, without signing up for anything or
>>> > paying any fees.
>>>
>>> Making the all the software painless for users is a great goal=E2=80=94=
 and
>>> one I share.  I still maintain that it has nothing to do with
>>> promoting less capable and secure software to users.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
>>> LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial
>>> Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support
>>> Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add service=
s
>>> Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>> LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial
>> Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support
>> Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services
>> Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
> LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial
> Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support
> Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services
> Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>

--20cf3074b54053e31a04d017d26a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would like to chime on on the user experience of the SPV client (in parti=
cular MultiBit). <br><br>Without exception, everyone that I have introduced=
 Bitcoin (which is a lot of people) have expected an &quot;instant-on&quot;=
 experience. It has to clobber PayPal and credit cards or people won&#39;t =
give it a second look, let alone a second chance. SPV clients deliver on th=
at expectation. <br>
<br>Once the user has the great initial &quot;wow!&quot; moment then their =
interest in Bitcoin is reinforced and they tend to explore further, particu=
larly into the economic theory behind it. Many decide to install the full n=
ode out of a sense of community contribution to the security of the network=
.<br>
<br>Having a hybrid mode of SPV first then full node second should be somet=
hing that a user has control over - it is their computing resources we are =
using after all and Bitcoin should not be perceived as a drain.<br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 5 December 2012 07:50, Wladimir <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:laanwj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">laan=
wj@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Jim,<div><br></div><div>Most of those issues don&#39;t have to do with the =
SPV versus non-SPV problem.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>First person doe=
sn&#39;t understand what Bitcoin is supposed to do (he&#39;s confusing mini=
ng and running a node). An information problem that could be solved by expl=
aining what is going on.<br>

</div><div><br></div><div>Another one seems to have a problem with DEP. Tha=
t&#39;s probably an issue with his OS configuration.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>The third one is confused about the fees. Again, an information problem.=
</div>

<div><br></div><div>Only the fourth one is concerned with synchronization. =
The other ones could happen with any client, as they&#39;re either based on=
 misconceptions about bitcoin as a whole or computer problems.</div><div>

<br></div><div>This doesn&#39;t in any way make switching to another, reduc=
ed security model client preferable. Let&#39;s first try to improve the Bit=
coin experience with full security model, and if that somehow turns out to =
be impossible it&#39;s always possible to recommend some other client based=
 on the &#39;user type&#39;.=C2=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t agree that this point is now. Anyway, secur=
ity and stability of the network is of utmost importance to do anything in =
the future, better to grow=C2=A0organically=C2=A0than explode.</div><div><b=
r></div>

<div>Many initiatives are underway to improve the Satoshi client (for examp=
le=C2=A0to have Bitcoin-Qt behave as SPV client during=C2=A0initial=C2=A0bl=
ock download, and as full node after that), but as usual in open source dev=
elopment, many of us are doing this basically for fun in our free time it d=
oes not always go as fast as users would like.</div>

<div>=C2=A0</div><div>I wish there was a straightforward solution for that,=
 yeah pooling together our development on one or two clients instead of a z=
illion different ones could help, but=C2=A0everyone=C2=A0has more fun worki=
ng on their own client that&#39;s just how things go :)</div>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div><br></div></font></span><div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#88=
8888">Wladimir</font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 6:38 AM, Jim =
Nguyen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jimmy.winn@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">jimmy.winn@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">Gavin&#39;s grandma needs to be able to use bitcoin. =C2=
=A0Here is a real world sampling of the types of people wanting to use bitc=
oin but are having some difficulty which I have collected from Facebook. =
=C2=A0Should we listen to the end user? :-P<div>


<div><br></div><div><i>&quot;what is the intention of Bitcoin? Is it suppos=
ed to be - eventually - for dummies like myself or is it just for those ind=
ividuals who are code and algorithm writers? I downloaded a wallet but how =
do I know if I need more software or a massive computer system to solve &qu=
ot;the problem&quot; for the next block? With all the talk of mathematical =
problem solving on a world wide network of computers I can&#39;t see a smal=
l laptop figuring out anything thus not gaining any bitcoins. Why should I =
be interested in this if it appears it&#39;s just for computer scientists?&=
quot;</i></div>


<div><br></div><div><i>&quot;hi, instaled bitcoin qt, but after it dowladed=
 all the stuff, now i get DEP protecction from windows, and it tells me bit=
coinQT need to run with DEP on, dont let me make an exception for it, nor w=
ork it i turn DEP only for sys, so hwat i should do?&quot;</i><br>


</div><div><br></div><div><i>&quot;hi, i&#39;m new to bitcoin, i got a bunc=
h of free bitcoins from a bunch of the free sites. how come when i tried to=
 send my bitcoins to myself, it says the fee exceeds the balance? I thought=
 there was no fees?&quot;</i></div>


<div><br></div><div><i>&quot;Is there a way to speed up the process of sync=
hronisation with the network? It has been taken ages on my MAC.</i></div><d=
iv><i>Any help would be nice&quot;</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div>


<i>and more...</i></div><div><br></div><div>Sorry if this doesn&#39;t belon=
g to the bitcoin-development email list. =C2=A0I just see this as end-user/=
customer data gathering to refine the requirements, since this is software =
engineering...isn&#39;t it?</div>

<span><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Jim</=
div></font></span><div><div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec=
 4, 2012 at 6:54 PM, Gregory Maxwell <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:gmaxwell@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmaxwell@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div>On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Alan Reiner &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:etotheipi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">etotheipi@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br>



&gt; Our divergence is on two points (personal opinions):<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; (1) I don&#39;t think there is any real risk to the centralization of =
the<br>
&gt; network by promoting a SPV (purely-consuming) node to brand-new users.=
<br>
&gt; In my opinion (but I&#39;m not as familiar with the networking as you)=
, as<br>
&gt; long as all full nodes are full-validation, the bottleneck will be<br>
&gt; computation and bandwidth, long before a constant 10k nodes would be<b=
r>
&gt; insufficient to support propagating data through the network.<br>
<br>
</div>Not so=E2=80=94 a moderately fast multicore desktop machine can keep =
up with<br>
the maximum possible validation rate of the Bitcoin network and the<br>
bandwidth has a long term maximum rate of about 14kbit/sec=E2=80=94 though<=
br>
you&#39;ll want at least ten times that for convergence stability and the<b=
r>
ability feed multiple peers.<br>
<br>
Here are the worst blocks testnet3 (which has some intentionally<br>
constructed maximum sized blocks),E31230 :<br>
(with the new parallel validation code)<br>
- Verify 2166 txins: 250.29ms (0.116ms/txin)<br>
- Verify 3386 txins: 1454.25ms (0.429ms/txin)<br>
- Verify 5801 txins: 575.46ms (0.099ms/txin)<br>
- Verify 6314 txins: 625.05ms (0.099ms/txin)<br>
Even the slowest one _validates_ at 400x realtime. (these measurements<br>
are probably a bit noisy=E2=80=94 but the point is that its fast).<br>
(the connecting is fast too, but thats obvious with such a small database)<=
br>
<br>
Although I haven&#39;t tested leveldb+ultraprune with a really enormous<br>
txout set or generally with sustained maximum load=E2=80=94 so there may be=
<br>
other gaffs in the software that get exposed with sustained load, but<br>
they&#39;d all be correctable. Sounds like some interesting stuff to test<b=
r>
with on testnet fork that has the POW test disabled.<br>
<br>
While syncing up a behind node can take a while=E2=80=94 keep in mind that<=
br>
you&#39;re expecting to sync up weeks of network work in hours. Even<br>
&#39;slow&#39; is quite fast.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; In fact,<br>
&gt; I was under the impression that &quot;connectedness&quot; was the real=
 metric of<br>
&gt; concern (and resilience of that connectedness to large percentage of<b=
r>
&gt; users disappearing suddenly). =C2=A0If that&#39;s true, above a certai=
n number of<br>
&gt; nodes, the connectedness isn&#39;t really going to get any better (I k=
now<br>
&gt; it&#39;s not really that simple, but I feel like it is up to 10x the c=
urrent<br>
&gt; network size).<br>
<br>
</div>Thats not generally concern for me. There are a number of DOS attack<=
br>
risks... But attacker linear DOS attacks aren&#39;t generally avoidable<br>
and they don&#39;t persist.<br>
<br>
Of the class of connectedness concerns I have is that a sybil attacker<br>
could spin up enormous numbers of nodes and then use them to partition<br>
large miners. =C2=A0So, e.g. find BitTaco&#39;s node(s) and the nodes for<b=
r>
miners covering 25% hashpower and get them into a separate partition<br>
from the rest of the network. Then they give double spends to that<br>
partition and use them to purchase an unlimited supply of digitally<br>
delivered tacos=E2=80=94 allowing their captured miners to build an ill fat=
ed<br>
fork=E2=80=94 and drop the partition once the goods are delivered.<br>
<br>
But there is no amount of full nodes that removes this concern,<br>
especially if you allow for attackers which have compromised ISPs.<br>
It can be adequately addressed by a healthy darknet of private<br>
authenticated peerings between miners and other likely targets. I&#39;ve<br=
>
also thrown out some ideas on using merged mined node IDs to make some<br>
kinds of sybil attacks harder ... but it&#39;ll be interesting to see how<b=
r>
the deployment of ASICs influences the concentration of hashpower=E2=80=94 =
it<br>
seems like there has already been a substantial move away from the<br>
largest pools. Less hashpower consolidation makes attacks like this<br>
less worrisome.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; (2) I think the current experience *is* really poor.<br>
<br>
</div>Yes, I said so specifically. =C2=A0But the fact that people are flapp=
ing<br>
their lips here instead of testing the bitcoin-qt git master which is<br>
an 1-2 order of magnitude improvement suggests that perhaps I&#39;m wrong<b=
r>
about that. =C2=A0Certainly the dearth of people testing and making bug<br>
reports suggests people don&#39;t actually care that much.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; You seem to<br>
&gt; suggest that the question for these new users is whether they will use=
<br>
&gt; full-node-or-lite-node, but I believe it will be a decision between<br=
>
&gt; lite-node-or-nothing-at-all (losing interest altogether).<br>
<br>
</div>No. The &quot;question&quot; that I&#39;m concerned with is do we pro=
mote lite nodes<br>
as equally good option=E2=80=94 even for high end systems=E2=80=94 remove t=
he<br>
incentive for people to create, improve, and adopt more useful full<br>
node software and forever degrade the security of the system.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; Waiting a day<br>
&gt; for the full node to synchronize, and then run into issues like<br>
&gt; blkindex.dat corruption when their system crashes for some unrelated<b=
r>
&gt; reason and they have to resync for another day... they&#39;ll be gone =
in a<br>
&gt; heartbeat.<br>
<br>
</div>The current software patches plus parallelism can sync on a fast<br>
system with luck network access (or a local copy of the data) in under<br>
an hour.<br>
<br>
This is no replacement for start as SPV, but nor are handicapped<br>
client programs a replacement for making fully capable ones acceptably<br>
performing.<br>
<div><br>
&gt; Users need to experience, as quickly and easily as possible, that they=
<br>
&gt; can move money across the world, without signing up for anything or<br=
>
&gt; paying any fees.<br>
<br>
</div>Making the all the software painless for users is a great goal=E2=80=
=94 and<br>
one I share. =C2=A0I still maintain that it has nothing to do with<br>
promoting less capable and secure software to users.<br>
<div><div><br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial<br>
Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support<br>
Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services<br=
>
Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d" target=3D"_blank">http://p=
.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div><br>-----------------------------------------------------------=
-------------------<br>
LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial<br>
Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support<br>
Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services<br=
>
Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d" target=3D"_blank">http://p=
.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d</a><br>_______________________________________=
________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div>
<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<br>
LogMeIn Rescue: Anywhere, Anytime Remote support for IT. Free Trial<br>
Remotely access PCs and mobile devices and provide instant support<br>
Improve your efficiency, and focus on delivering more value-add services<br=
>
Discover what IT Professionals Know. Rescue delivers<br>
<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d" target=3D"_blank">http://p=
.sf.net/sfu/logmein_12329d2d</a><br>_______________________________________=
________<br>
Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--20cf3074b54053e31a04d017d26a--